My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 419 - The Butterfly King: A WWII Murder Mystery
Episode Date: March 14, 2024Karen and Georgia announce the new Exactly Right true crime series, The Butterfly King - a World War II murder mystery coproduced with Blanchard House. Host Becky Milligan and producer Emma Jane Kirby... discuss their investigation into the death of King Boris III, the Butterfly King. The Butterfly King premieres March 21 with new episodes out every Thursday. https://www.exactlyrightmedia.com/the-butterfly-king Follow, rate and review The Butterfly King wherever you get your podcasts. See historical photos by going to @exactlyright on Instagram. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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This is Exactly Right.
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a journalist, author, and podcast host.
And I'm Paul Holes, a retired investigator with experience solving some of America's
most notorious cold cases.
Together, we host Buried Bones, a historical true crime podcast on the Exactly Right Network.
Each week, we examine a different case from history and use our years of experience and
21st century forensics to bring new insights into these very old tragedies.
Like the time the Sausage King of Chicago's wife went missing in 1897.
Don't miss new episodes every Wednesday.
Follow Buried Bones wherever you get your podcasts. Hello.
And welcome.
To my favorite murder.
That is Georgia Hartstark.
That's Karen Kilgarriff.
And today we're going to be talking about the murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man.
And what is the murder of a man?
The murder of a man is a murder of a man. And what is the murder of a man? The murder of a man is a murder of a man. And welcome.
To my favorite murder.
That is Georgia Hartstark.
That's Karen Kilgarriff.
And today we are so thrilled to announce exactly right newest podcast, the Butterfly King.
It's a World War II murder mystery takes place in Bulgaria.
We pulled the audience.
We said, what do you want to hear about?
You said Bulgaria, we're on it.
And today, this very special episode, we are being joined by the two people who
made this podcast. They're BBC journalists with a combined 60 years
experience between the two of them. Please welcome the host of The Butterfly
King, Becky Milligan, and her producer and the co-star of the podcast, EJ Kirby.
Hi.
Hello.
Hi.
Hi, guys.
Hi.
Thanks so much for having us.
Yes, thank you so much.
Just to clarify, we're not 60.
No, no, no.
Exactly.
We're nowhere near 60.
No, no.
Nearly.
We are 32.
Nearly.
Nearly 60, but not quite.
I was like, it's cool that you could just combine numbers now and sound more official
that like, yeah, can I do that with?
Yeah, can we do that?
We have over 16 years podcasting experience.
Together, together.
Oh my god.
Well, yeah, we're just a bit older than you.
That's all there is.
We look so good on it.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Now for us, it's 11 in the morning. but for you guys, it's nighttime, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we have our cups of tea to keep awake.
Yes.
Because normally I'm in bed by this time.
Well, me too, actually.
It's 730.
I'd usually be in bed with a book.
Yeah, that's it.
Well, before we talk about the Butterfly King, we want to hear about your incredible
journalism careers. You guys met doing that, correct? Yeah, that's right. I mean, oh god,
it's a long time. I started off in papers and then moved to the BBC. I don't know about you,
EJ. Did you go straight to the BBC? One trick pony, just the BBC.
So we took slightly different paths, but we know, we knew of each other. So I was
very much radio, BBC radio, and then a bit of TV with sort of documentary programs and so on. And
I mean, I just did a lot of foreign news, a lot of politics, and investigative really, I suppose,
really sort of hunting out stories. I think
both of us really had to come up with our own stories a lot, investigate them and then
present them and then hope that you get a headline in the paper the next day. In those
days, my job when I was in radio was to make sure every newspaper led on the story I was
doing the next day, especially if it was politics. So I did quite a lot of politics. And then foreign affairs went to in 1999, my God, so long ago, went to Afghanistan.
So it was the time when the Taliban were taking over and went a bit undercover.
And that was a bit scary.
Yeah. What was the undercover work like?
Well, we weren't allowed to film, so we had to have little hidden cameras.
And I went with we were filming it all ourselves.
And I went with a producer and a friend who was in this program
called Newsnight at the BBC.
So we were doing two programs, about two 20 minute films,
and we had to go in and we'd set up these interviews.
We had to go in secretly in this kind of over the Khyber
Pass I remember.
And the key is not to be stopped by the Taliban at that time.
And they'd sort of drive past with their Kalashnikovs and you'd just have to sort of hide in the
back of a van.
And then arrive in Kabul.
And yeah, there were moments, the worst moment actually, we'd interviewed a lot of women.
It was very much about women and the situation for women there under the Taliban.
And it was, it was really, really bad at the time.
I mean, it is how it is now really, actually.
It's sort of so weird because it just feels exactly the same.
And we had, as we left, we had to sort of cover ourselves and we were with an Afghan
man who did radio. So everyone knew
his voice, but they didn't know what he looked like in Afghanistan. So we went to the airport
to try and leave after three or four weeks gathering material secretly. And the Taliban
asked to search us and we had all the interviews taped underneath our clothes. We were really scared at that point
because if they'd looked at the videos
or they'd seen the tape of the women who talked to us,
they could be in really big danger.
And so the guy we were with suddenly turned around
and just exclaimed who he was
and everyone recognized his name.
And then he just turned to us and said, run. So we ran
to the sort of runway where there was an Oxfam plane. And we just ran and said, get us on.
It was really crazy.
Wait a second. Are you guys in the MI5? Is that also part of being with the BBC?
We are, both of us.
We can't possibly comment. No, we can't comment on that.
I said we could tell you.
We've got, we're actually filming this.
We've got this on tape.
But I did see some CIA people, I remember, because they were sort of hovering around.
But anyway, first they said, no, we can't take you on.
We're too full.
And then we just squeezed on and we flew to Pakistan actually then.
So we did manage to get out. It was a bit hairy.
You did some work, didn't you, in Afghanistan?
No, I did loads in Afghanistan. I was a foreign correspondent, so for many years I lived outside
Britain, all over the place, and I was mainly doing death and disaster and misery, really.
I did have a very nice nickname for many years as the Angel of Death, because any earthquake,
plane crash, bombing, whatever, I was...
E.J. was there.
Yeah, I walked up.
But yeah, I did lots of Afghanistan.
I was embedded with French forces in Afghanistan, got shot at by the Taliban.
So I went later than you.
I went just after the fall of the Taliban.
I was in, whenever it was, 2001, I went.
Yes, it's literally a couple of years later.
Yeah. And yes, so I was embedded with French forces for a month and yes, very exciting things,
you know, people taking helicopter rides with people gunning away out, you know. It's all very
strange, all very strange times, but fun times.
When you hear that that's an assignment you're about to get, is that kind of what you got into
it for? Is that kind of what you love or are you stressed like anyone going, oh no, my job is really
hard?
I mean, I didn't get into it for that at all and I'm really, really scared all the time. I went also
to Sierra Leone and I went on my own on that one. It
was just so frightening during the Civil War. So it's not something I looked to do, but
I found stories. So it's a little bit different from EJ because that was what her job was.
Whereas I found a story and then I really regretted finding it because, you know, I
just think, why did I do this? Why am I here?
I remember someone saying, do you want to come down to the front line?
I said, no, I'm under the bed.
I'm in the hotel.
I'm staying there.
So I didn't enjoy it.
So actually after Sierra Leone and Afghanistan, I really turned to politics
because I had kids then and I just didn't really want to go away so much.
It was just one of those things that I just felt really inside. But I think, I don't know what you feel about
that.
I'm happiest on the road. I'm always happy. So yeah, I'm just, yeah, I was just one of
those people who had a suitcase under the bed, a suitcase, you know, in the office.
And yeah, I mean, when I was a Europe correspondent, I was in a different country three times a week. So it was, you know, all the time for TV, and for radio, you know, doing all kinds of
things.
I made documentaries 44,000 feet over Moscow in zero gravity.
What's the story?
Zero gravity over Moscow?
It's like, I think you have a vomit comet, don't you?
The American space program.
So it was the first time that the Russians had opened up the space program to tourism
and some reason I got chosen to go, I can't remember how, I won a lottery or something,
I don't know.
But I got chosen to go and I'm possibly the worst person to do it because if you, zero
gravity, I thought it would be like yogic flying you know really quite gentle but it's actually like being on a roller
coaster the worst fairground ride you've ever been on in your life and they took
they took bets the cosmonauts they were all Russian cosmonauts who'd been on
Mir you know they had hair that was sort of at right angles to their heads you
know they'd been up there too long. And they, yeah, they had
a bet that I could see that money was passing hands. I don't speak Russian, so I didn't
know what they were betting on. And then they said, do you like tennis? And I was, I'm sick
on a garden swing, you know, so I was incredibly sick and these things. But I obviously wasn't
performing well enough because the bet was on how much I was going to be sick and somebody had bet you know 37 times and I only was up to 23
so they asked did I like tennis and I said yeah I quite like tennis and they
said okay next parabola the parabola is the shape the hill shape that you make
when you're in zero gravity or going into zero gravity they said just hug your
knees so I said what well I don't have gravity, they said, just hug your knees. So I said, what?
Well, how?
I don't have a racket.
And he said, just hug your knees.
And of course I was the ball.
Oh no.
Yeah.
Oh no.
So yes, I performed 37 times.
There was very rich Russian cosmonaut, thanks to my vomit.
How long did that flight last overall?
We had to come back early because my heart went a bit funny.
Wow.
Really?
Yes.
You'll do whatever it takes for a story, obviously.
So can you tell us a little bit about how you found the story of the Butterfly King
and what drew you to it and all of the kind of backstory of you guys going, here we go,
this is the new one we're working on.
So finding the story, it was during COVID,
and my father died really sadly,
and I was down at their house,
and I was just looking through all his books, actually,
and spending a bit of time there with my sisters.
As I was looking through all his books
and material and stuff, he had a very slender volume, which was called Hitler and the King,
by John Hall Spencer. And I just picked it up, clicked through it, and I thought,
I don't know what this is, you know, what's this story about? You know, it just intrigued me. I had
never heard of this story before and I just thought that's quite unusual, particularly
in that era, Second World War. We sort of feel like, you know, we've been through those
stories a lot and we sort of know about them all. But it involved Bulgaria, which I knew
very little about. I just thought it was a sort of communist block
country that, you know, there we are. But it was a country I didn't know much about. And then
I'd seen that book and then Blanchard House, this company which I had joined, we were sort of thinking
about ideas. And so I sort of suggested it, maybe we should investigate what this is about and see if we can find out more about it.
And then, and E.J.
Yeah, then I got lured over under false pretenses that I was going to have a lovely time and I get dumped with her to make the butterfly king.
Which was just great.
It was just great to have EJ there. And you, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because you, you know, it's a story that I think interested you as well.
Oh, yeah, very, very much. I did, I'd worked a lot in Bulgaria and I really liked Bulgaria.
Bulgaria is my favourite Eastern Bloc country. I really did like it. It is a fascinating place.
It really is. You know, You've got these fabulous coastlines.
You've got quite unpleasant wine, which has now become actually very pleasant.
It is pleasant now.
Is it?
Yeah, it is.
Honestly, it wasn't in my...
I didn't remember that.
Well, you refused to drink it.
Right.
It was very dark.
You refused.
Yeah, I did.
But it is a bit rough.
An incredible history.
Incredible history.
Which I know about.
Incredible history. There's Plovdiv, you know,
their second biggest city. It's got a huge amphitheatre, Roman amphitheatre, you know,
I think was built in 1 AD or something. It's amazing. It's got coastlines, it's got mountains.
It's a gorgeous country and it's actually one of the oldest countries in the world.
It's got a huge history. It's, you know, partly it's sort of squashed between
Romania and Greece and it's got Turkey right down to its south. It's got a brilliant climate.
It's brilliant influence. I really like Bulgaria.
It seems like a secret place. I, before listening to the podcast, didn't, I couldn't have named
a single thing about Bulgaria, truly. And it's involvement in World War II, which
I am interested in. It's not like I'm just completely oblivious. So it was very surprising
Bulgaria, of all places.
And then the idea that this, you know, it's a slight spoiler alert, but the point of the
entire podcast is the King and what he does during World War II
to protect Bulgarian Jews in that country. And the idea that that story isn't commonly known
globally is shocking to me because it's an unbelievable story.
I think that's what was really intriguing and interesting. It's an amazing story that
hardly anyone knows. It's a complex story and it's also, I think, a story which people
have a dispute over, even now, don't they?
Oh yeah. The country's still very divided, those who are royalists and those who are
communists and those who believe
that Boris did fantastically well, saving the Jewish population and those who say he
could have done a lot more, and those who say his hands were tied. But the fact remains
that while the rest of Europe was seeing its Jewish population, perhaps with the exception
of Denmark, absolutely slaughtered by the Nazis, Bulgaria's Jewish population
increased during the Second World War. And the king was the head of the state. And that's,
that was the thing that drew me to it. I love history, love Bulgaria, but honestly, I didn't
know the story of Boris. And he is such an intriguing character.
Everything about it, isn't it?
Oh, he came alive for us. Everything about it, isn't it?
He came alive for us.
He really did, didn't he?
And even though it's highly emotional for people in Bulgaria and for people across the world,
his legacy and what actually happened, it's also the fact that he was murdered.
that he was murdered.
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Goodbye.
He was murdered.
He was murdered.
Mysteriously.
It's been pushed under the carpet.
You know, the whole story has just been pushed
under the carpet.
Nobody wanted to talk about it.
And that was that.
And we did want to talk about it.
And we did want to, you know, dig it all up dig it all up again and try and find people who
could help us discover what really happened and what Boris was really like because it's
80 years on. So those witnesses are few and far between except we found two Corker witnesses.
Yeah, really exciting witnesses who agreed to talk to us for this podcast, which was
just amazing. And his incredible children who are pretty young when he died still have beautiful memories
of their father, the king. How did you go about tracking down royalty from another country like
that? Like what, you just cold email? Well, weirdly, I think initially, I think
having found that book, I did definitely think we need the witnesses
of the king's son, King Simeon, even though he's a sort of king.
He didn't abdicate, but he was in exile when the communists came in.
But anyway, we'll call him a sort of king, Simeon.
And so it's quite strange.
Yes, initially, I found an email address for this person called Yavor, who was his, you know, who said he was a
representative of King Simeon. I didn't hear anything for ages. I thought, oh, well, you know,
I tried to call and then didn't hear anything. So it was sort of plodding a long time before we
actually really started on it. And then suddenly just popped an email saying, let's, yes, I think we can fit in 15 minutes
at some point. It was during COVID at that point, so it was put on hold. And then of course,
the negotiations started for, we need a little bit more than 15 minutes, and we need to talk about
what happened to his father and all of this stuff and slowly but surely
we began to realize that it was the children who have this unanswered question, this ache
in their hearts of what happened to their father.
Yeah, they just want to know. You know, they're very elderly now, they're 90 and 86 and they're
desperate to know, you know, he
was their dear papa.
We're talking about King Boris III of Bulgaria, this person that history's forgotten, but
they feel their father's been forgotten and, you know, they believe he was murdered and
they are desperate to know the truth before they die, you know, and they are, you know,
they don't have much time left and unfortunately they've only got us
to tell the...
Yeah.
To find out.
What was also really striking was, you know, you expect, you know, it was quite nerve-racking,
obviously meeting them and everything, but what came out, I think, for both of us was
after a few meetings, you know, they really relaxed. And just the sorrow that anyone would feel of losing a parent is so profound.
And they were really open and we really shared their sadness, wasn't it?
It was really heartbreaking.
It was terribly sad.
And the way they talked about him, they sounded so close.
And he was an interesting father
and he liked engines and butterflies and having fun with his children and they obviously,
you know, enjoyed his company when they had a chance to see him.
So I think...
He told them stories, didn't he, about people who lived under mushrooms.
Yes.
I remember he made up stories.
It's just such a nice thing, isn't it?
It's so sweet.
First of all, when I would be listening to episodes,
it's like you're getting factual historical information,
which I always appreciate because I have a spotty education at best.
And so listening to it and feeling very like,
oh, yes, of course, Bulgaria, you know, like getting all that.
But then the two of you, like one of my favorite parts and spoiler alert, if
you don't want to hear anything about the details of this, you know, hit the 15 ahead.
But you guys show up to the palace in a cab, the cab driver doesn't really know where the
palace is because it's not well known, which I'm like, what? And then you guys get in.
And at one point, I think, Becky, you almost knock a vase
or you do knock a vase off of the table.
And when I was listening, like, first of all, of course, my heart stopped.
But then also I was like, oh, my God, they got this on tape.
They left it in. They are so good.
Like, I was like, this is going to be amazing
because you're doing so many things at once.
You're telling this story, teaching us about this amazing and maybe unheard of historical World War II event,
and then sharing your own experience as you try to get the story and solve this mystery. So great.
That was a funny moment.
That really was. Yeah moment. That really was.
Yeah, it was really bad. I was just trying to be friendly, put everyone at ease, and I realized
that you weren't meant to touch anything, but then this thing, it just was really kind of
interesting shape and I just couldn't, you know, just, I didn't, what was it? I just broke it.
I don't know what it was, I just broke it. The great thing was that the King's suave aide, who's so lovely and royal and would
never make a fuss about the fact that Becky had actually ruined the palace, he'd actually
just said to us, and he explained what it was, I can't remember, and he said it's practically
unbreakable and then Becky knocked it off and broke it.
Oh no.
And he said, well, nearly.
I think the worst thing about that on tape, which I didn't realise I'd said was anyway.
I just should have carried on.
Literally swept it under the carpet.
Yeah, you're like, we're going to edit that out.
Yes, exactly.
But there's more important things to talk about than how I'm ruining your front room or whatever.
We did have some funny moments, you know, although they're very serious moments.
We also had quite a lot of, you know,
it was funny at times with all the people we met.
And actually the royals themselves, you know,
laughed a lot with us.
We haven't mentioned, we've talked about King Simeon,
but Princess Maria Luisa, God, I just want to be her.
You know, she is so fantastic.
And she, at the end of, you know, our interviews, she said she she at the end of, you know, our interviews,
she said she'd had a lovely time, you know, goodness me, I hope she did. And she's just
being very polite. But she did say, do come and see us. Didn't she? She said, come and
stay and then she, you look very excited. And she said, no, not this Christmas.
Yes, I was ready to pack my bags. We could see her flat in, is it New York in the Bronx
or whatever? New Jersey.
The Bronx.
The Bronx, yeah. It's got that Bronx. Anyway, and it just looks so lovely. I just thought,
I said, can I bring the family? I'm moving. But yes, she suddenly said, not this Christmas.
She's got too many people around. But she was really interesting.
She was fantastic. You interesting and they would call
you wouldn't they? Oh yes I did have a very embarrassing moment with her actually because
during the summer she called me and I was I partly live in France and I was in the south of France
it was very very hot in August and I was in a bikini and my phone went and it was a sort of
unknown number so who knows who that is I said said, yes, hello. And she said, Oh, hello, this is Maria Louisa. And I thought, well, that sounds like the princess. That can't
be the princess. So I said, sorry, who's this? And she said, Her Royal Highness Princess
Maria. And so immediately, you know, I sort of got down to my knees in my bikini. I was
giving the cat its flea treatment at the time. So the cat's taken on all kinds of airs and
graces.
Let me ask you this.
They both sound amazing in the first episode.
You guys seem to actually have this connection.
They seem excited about their father finally getting his story told.
Were you a little nervous that you might dig up these less than savory stories about him
from the people who didn't see him as a hero and then you'd have to come back and report
that to them? That seems like it'd be, you know.
I think they've heard it before, haven't they?
They know the criticism.
They know the criticism,
and they're very defensive of their father,
but they listened and they, I mean,
our job is to ask really difficult questions, isn't it?
Right. Absolutely.
I think you have to put it straight to them, you know,
because that's what you find.
And then you have to ask, you know, well, you what you find. And then you have to ask, you
know, well, you know, lots of people don't think your father was a hero, or lots of people
think this about your father. He was a public, obviously a public figure, they're used to
it. And they are public figures. So in some ways, they kind of take it on the chin. And
they give as good as they get really, don't they? I mean, they make their defense. So fair enough.
And I think I came out of it, honestly, thinking from all the people we met, but particularly
obviously from those that knew him and the stuff that we read in the archives, you know,
personal diaries about meetings with him, etc.
I just wish I'd met him.
Oh, yes, I know.
Absolutely.
Fascinating.
He was like a James Bond figure.
Total James Bond.
Yeah.
And the real problem, the real sort of thing is his position in World War II.
So it just leaves, he just can't help but think, oh God, oh dear.
His hands were completely tied.
He was, you know, it was a catch-22 for him, total catch-22. We go into that in
a light way of the politics of World War II. But this poor guy, he couldn't do right for
doing wrong. He was absolutely in the worst geographical position possible. He had Romania
to his north and that was occupied by the Nazis. He had Greece you know, Romania to his north and that was, you know, occupied by
the Nazis. He had Greece occupied by the Italians. He was absolutely stuck economically dependent
on Germany.
No standing army, right?
No standing army because of the first, exactly because of the First World War. They'd done,
they'd been on the wrong side in the First World War and the Allies punished Bulgaria
terribly.
They lost huge swathes of territory.
They lost the right to have an army.
So they came to the Second World War and yeah, no army, nothing.
And they wanted to be neutral.
What we should say is, you know, one of the great things about Boris is he was a man who
detested war.
He hated war.
He'd seen the Balkans war.
He'd seen the First World War and he'd seen the First World War, and he'd seen
horrific suffering and death, and he was terribly affected by it.
And wanted to be neutral, just wanted to not make the same mistake that his father, Foxy
Ferdinand.
And he'd said, yeah, you know, that's it. That's my promise. When he ascended the throne, he said, that's my promise.
I will never, ever see a Bulgarian soldier fight. I will never put a Bulgarian.
Wow. Yeah. It is that question of like, what happens when you simply can't be neutral?
That isn't a choice you can make. What do you do? It's not going to be perfect.
Whatever you choose, or whatever way you go.
But what a diplomat.
Yeah, a huge, huge diplomat.
I mean, he was treading a very fine line and, you know, he learned how to smile on both
sides of his face, basically, try and keep everyone happy.
But obviously he didn't because...
He didn't?
No, because he... He had a lot of enemies. Yes because he had a lot of enemies.
Yes, he had a lot of enemies.
We were talking about this show the other day to some people and we were talking through
just some of the attempts on his life where as you're listening to the podcast, you're just kind
of like, is this real? Like it again, it's happening and again, he somehow gets out of it. Like listening to this story and listening to it unfold, it is just larger than life.
It really is kind of like you're saying a little James Bondy here and there, even though
that's not that character seems like not that way at all.
He's much more of like, I like insects and you know, nature.
It's like Indiana Jones meets James Bond.
Yeah, exactly.
It meets Darwin.
I just realized, insects.
I actually heard insects.
Karen's been doing her own research.
That was the last thing he was interested in, wasn't it?
Really?
Gotta hope.
That's a different story.
Yeah, we better get down that road.
That's after hours.
Yeah, exactly.
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Is there any standout moments from making this podcast that you have that you want to
share? Good or bad? Good or bad. Oh, I think some of the people that we we met, I would
say our snake expert. and the great thing is that
EJ does a great impression of our snake expert now you said you wouldn't make me do
Our snake expert is from Birmingham, so he has it that's the Midlands in England
Which is quite a thick accent and he was fantastic wasn't he looked like him if you've seen Harry Potter films, he looked like Dumbledore from the Harry Potter films. He was fabulous, wasn't
he? He was so funny as well.
He was brilliant and such an expert. I mean, the best person we could have talked to.
But he kept bringing you to, you know, you would get very excited. Becky gets very excited
doing interviews when she thinks she's sniffed out something and he would just say to her, it's not an Agatha
Christi, Becky, it's not an Agatha Christi. But he would tell us about, he'd been bitten by snakes
many, many, many times, been hospitalized, hadn't he, many, many times and you said to him,
I remember you said, oh my God, I can't believe that you've got a mouthful of snake venom. He said,
yeah, that wasn't so bad. It was the mouthful of snake venom." And he said, yeah, that wasn't so bad.
It was the mouthful of baturine that was the worst.
It got worse. Yeah, but it's absolutely brilliant because he did really
bring it to life so well.
You know, sometimes you can get experts and they're quite dry, you know,
and they don't, you know, and you just kind of think, oh, I can't see my way
through the woods with this. But all the people we talked to, of which there were so many experts, because
there's so many theories, and we had to sort of dig down and try and find out what the
symptoms, how he died, what he looked like when he was dying, how long it took. And we
just put all this in with the historical facts to try and come to a conclusion about, well, you know, how
he was killed, who murdered him. And it was such a fascinating journey. And to do it together,
you know, the standout moments, it sounds crass, maybe, but it's just that we just had such
a laugh together. You know, the moment in the taxi, you know, trying to find the palace,
and no one had heard of it. And it really was like going into this kind of nomads land.
I mean, it looked like there were these crazy, really dogs that looked like they were kind
of about to jump on. I was a bit more scared than the newer, I know, I got really tense
about it because I love dogs. I don't know what it was about these dogs, but they were
scary everywhere. And it didn't look like we were going towards a palace and that did make me laugh.
And then we were just pushed out of the taxi and we had to walk for ages trying to find
the entrance to the palace.
Yeah, try and find a doorbell.
It just seems so prosaic, doesn't it?
For a palace, you expect a few girls.
I think the joy was also meeting Bulgarians. All the Bulgarians
we met who were so helpful. It was so interesting to talk to them, especially, you know.
And also there was some using the royal loo.
Oh, the royal loo. Yeah.
The royal loo.
Yeah.
The royal lavatory.
EJ went, I think she used the loo in a way that I didn't use the loo.
Oh no, sorry.
Excuse me, Becky, I think we'll row back from that.
Wow.
I think after hours.
Fricking.
I mean, there were sort of little sort of things which I thought were the kings, you know,
a toothbrush, comb and stuff.
I didn't use all of it.
No, I didn't. Just used, a toothbrush comb and stuff. Why do you use all of it? No, I don't.
Just use the powder puffs and things.
I thought it was going too far, so we had a bit of a dispute about that, which was quite funny.
It did turn into, you know, it's a historical murder mystery,
it did turn into a bit of a hysterical murder mystery.
Oh my god.
At times, times, because, you know, we did really try and go down every avenue to try and find out. And I think we
come up with a fairly good idea.
I think so. I think that's the thing.
Yeah, I was going to ask, are you satisfied with what you have come away with and the
answers you've gotten?
I think so because I think, I mean, you all know this, but a lot of podcasts, you know,
you listen to sort of 10 hours or eight hours of a podcast about a of podcasts, you know, you listen to sort of 10 hours or eight hours
of a podcast about a murder or, you know, a swindle or something or other. And the concluding
episode is something like, oh, well, we'll never find out now. And you think, oh, well,
that's eight hours of my life. I'll never get back. But we have come up with a pretty
solid, I think, yeah, bed of evidence for what we
suspect happened. Yes, I think so. With everything from
archives and evidence and all that stuff, I think we've come to the best
conclusion we could have done. Yeah, and the archives, that was a highlight
actually. I really enjoyed that. I mean, it sounds very dull, doesn't it?
I very much enjoyed the libraries and the archives. I very much enjoyed those.
But it was really good because it's not the sort of thing I necessarily go and do.
No, you were very reluctant.
No, no, I did enjoy it, but I knew we had to do it.
But yeah.
I enjoyed it.
Are there any lingering mysteries you wish you still want answers to? Is it maybe good
to have some little mysteries at the end?
There's some little mysteries. I tell you one thing that I think which really intrigued
me is in the archives, we found these diaries from the former ambassador to the UK and also
in Bulgaria and also what was Lord Lloyd, he was basically from the British Council,
wasn't he? He was a spy, he was another James Bond. I mean, it was the Second World War,
nobody was telling the truth, everything was hidden, everything was in code, everything.
But these were their diaries, you know, and they were bitchy, weren't they? They were
really bitchy. They were moaning about Bulgarian food and, you know, they don't like this and
I don't like this. And that was really fun but what I really liked is that at the end of having read Lord
Rendell, the ambassador's diary saying that you know Boris was treacherous and that he
was done this and he was a terrible person and you also got the sense that he really
liked him and hated the fact that things were turning against Boris. And I read his end of mission
statement after the war and he talks about, you know, maybe America, maybe Britain should have done
more to help Boris. Maybe we should have done more and, you know, it's fine to point the finger, but
maybe we could have done a little bit more. And it does feel, it's not something, a mystery still left, but it just felt quite relevant
to today because we've got so much going on in the world, so much conflict, so many elections
everywhere and every, you know, there's just a feel of pressure, feel of people actually
feeling it, feeling worried or, you know, extreme emotions going on that you could almost
learn something from this and that you can see that he was in a difficult position and
maybe reaching out. I think he wanted people to reach out to him, actually, but Churchill
definitely, the British Prime Minister at the time, turned his back on them, bombed
them.
And there was no going back.
And it just makes you think, gosh, you can get yourself boxed in and there's nothing
you can do.
That's a good way to put it actually.
I mean, he was boxed in.
Geographically, he was boxed in.
Politically, he was boxed in.
Historically, he was boxed in.
He was from this treacherous Saxe-Coburg family that, you know,
had been on the wrong side in the last war and who would trust a Saxe-Coburg? I mean,
that's what the feeling was.
And it does feel like the perilous world, you know what I mean? No, I really do think
about it now and just think, gosh, these things come back and haunt us all over again.
I mean, at the end of the day, it is incredible what he actually achieved.
And I am so thrilled that you guys are now telling this story that is so, is not well
known, but is an incredible, heroic, you know, mystery in the middle of World War II.
It's fascinating.
And his children lived to see it, like lived to see that story get told kind of in his
light. It's beautiful.
And I think that's really for them what's important, isn't it? They were saying, look,
you're not going to be able to say it was that man there because that man there has
died some time ago, you know, who bumped off the king or whatever. But what they really
want is for somebody to tell his story because, you know, as we said at the beginning, everybody's
forgotten King Boris III of Bulgaria, and I don't think they should. I think he had
an incredible role to play during the Second World War, a very difficult role to play.
He played it exceptionally well. And I think for the children what the story
has been told, it sort of exonerates him doesn't it? It brings him back to life in a way and it
paints a portrait of a man more realistically. He's neither, you know, there is no perfect hero,
is there? There are only flawed heroes. We all know that. Well, apart from your husband, obviously. He makes a lovely cup of tea.
I think it's really about also, you know, we don't make a whole load of judgments ourselves
about him actually. It's the voices in the podcast, we hear their opinions, which are
wide and varied. But what it does do is just tell the story.
And then people can make up their own minds to a certain extent.
Absolutely.
Because there will be arguments on each side.
And then you can listen and think, it's an interesting piece of history, and make up your own mind.
Yeah.
It's almost like you're really good, really professional journalists.
You know exactly what you're doing.
We don't have that here a lot on My Favorite Murder.
But can I ask you, I'm dying to know who would play King Boris in your
minds, who would be the perfect actor?
Obviously has to be a British, renowned British actor.
Oh, do you know, I was thinking about this the other day.
Edward Fox?
Hmm, Hugh Bonneville.
Hugh Bonneville?
Really?
Yeah, maybe.
I did think of somebody else as well.
You trying to look up your notes or something?
Yeah, I was, because I actually sent it to somebody.
She's forgotten that.
No, I did send it to somebody.
EJ, please, she's feeling.
Please get off your phone during this story.
She's just feeling.
It's just a little bit bored. No, I did. Please. She's filling. No, I did. Rory Kenear. Oh, Rory Kenear. The
one who was just in Bank of Dave. Yes, yes. He was in Bank of Dave. Yes, him and the diplomat.
He is a great character actor. Yeah. Yeah.
And he was in Charlotte.
No, he's in James Bond, isn't he?
I think he is.
Yes.
Yes, that's right.
Yes.
I just watched that one.
Oh, I totally see it for sure.
He's been in a million things, but yeah.
You'd have to shave his head hair off because obviously Boris was...
A little mustache.
Get a hold of exactly right media, if you're Rory's representative.
I love it.
You've moved on to new projects.
Is there anything exciting?
Is there any secret, exciting locations that you can tell us about or anything about what
you're working on now?
I can tell you that we're both knackered because she's just come back from...
I've just come back from Australia.
Melbourne.
Oh, it's a long flight. And I've just come back from Tamil, Melbourne. Oh, it's a long flight.
And I've just come back from Tamil Nadu in India.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
So we were told we're not allowed to say anything else, which is a bit boring.
No, we're not.
I'd love to tell you everything about it because it was really interesting.
They were unbelievable projects.
Yeah. unbelievable projects. Yeah, I think they're pretty crazy. Sort of slightly mystery, adventure,
thrillery type things.
Well you'll have to come back and tell us
once the green light is for you guys to talk,
you have to hear all about it.
We would love to do that.
But there are no royals in mine.
Have I got any royals?
I don't think you have.
You hang around a lot with royals, do you?
All the time. I can't even think who's in them now.
You know, when your brain leaves one, you just shut that door.
I'm just thinking of the king.
Yes, exactly.
I can remember nothing about it.
Well you guys, it's been, I mean, it's so lovely to meet you in person because we have
been meeting with Rosie from Blanchard House for a while now,
and the idea that we get to work with what feels like our British equivalent of Exactly Right,
which is Blanchard House Media, is so nice.
And it's just truly been a dream working with you on this project.
It's so cool.
And we're honored to be a part of the Blanchard House family,
and we're thrilled that you guys are here in the Exactly Right family.
So thank you for all your hard work and everything.
Oh, well, thank you.
We're just honored to be part of the ERM family.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.
We can't wait for everyone, all the murderers, to hear this incredible story.
And you are both such great storytellers.
It's thrilling.
So episodes one and two of the Butterfly King premiere
on Thursday, March 21st, new episodes every Thursday.
Please, please, please follow, rate, review, subscribe.
And it's so helpful and needed for podcasts.
That was awesome.
Thank you so much.
All right, well, we'll just wrap up
in front of two experienced BBC reporters, like it's
no big deal.
Stay sexy.
And don't get murdered.
Goodbye.
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
This has been an Exactly Right production.
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Ali Elkin.
Email your hometowns to MyFavoriteMurder at gmail.com.
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder. Goodbye!