Small Town Murder - #483 - The Serial Killer Tapes - Phillips, Wisconsin
Episode Date: April 18, 2024This week, in Phillips, Wisconsin, it's someone who can best be compared to a mixture of BTK, Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and David Parker Ray (Toy Box Killer). His fantasies got out of control, so he... attacked, tortured, murdered, and ate parts of his victims. He also argues with himself in different voices, and made a tape, that details all of the horrible things he did... And it's all true!!Along the way, we find out that the title of "Alice In Dairyland" is quite coveted, that if you're into bondage, when you're 10, you may need some help, in the future, and that it's hard to deny your own audio recorded confessions, when all the evidence matches up!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: crimeinsports@gmail.comGo to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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This week in Phillips, Wisconsin, a very sick man,
often compared to some of the most infamous serial killers
in history, goes on a terrible spree of twisted
and disturbing crimes, then describes them on tape
so no one will ever forget.
Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder.
Yay.
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy.
Yay indeed.
My name is James Petragallo.
I'm here with my co-host.
I'm Jimmy Wissman.
Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another outstandingly crazy edition of
Small Town Murder.
I am going to tell you up front here, we have to warn you, this one is especially just depraved
and disturbing and heinous today.
Oh boy. Very heinous today. Oh boy.
Very disturbing guy today.
We'll get into all that, but first we have to say, get your tickets right now, not only
for the whole tour coming up.
Raleigh Durham, you're up next and still some tickets.
Nashville, you're sold out that weekend.
So can't wait to come there.
But Virtual Live Show, can't wait.
April the 20th, it's our annual 420 virtual live show, just like
a regular live show except in your living room or wherever you have internet access
and you feel like watching with your own booze in your pajamas or you can put it on a tuxedo,
do whatever you want, we don't care.
Either way you're going to get a great live show, I'm going to have some crazy smoking
apparatus for Jimmy to really freak him out and all that sort of thing.
So it's going to be so much fun, definitely you want to get that. to have some crazy smoking apparatus for Jimmy to really freak him out and all that sort of thing.
So it's going to be so much fun.
Definitely you want to get that.
It's available for two weeks after the 20th as well.
You can buy it and watch it and have whatever.
You can watch it as many times as you want.
Have fun with that.
Shutupandgivememurder.com.
Get your tickets now.
Also Patreon you want.
Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus material, tons of
it back there.
Anybody $5 a month or above, you get the whole back catalog, hundreds of episodes to binge
on.
New ones every other week, one crime in sports, one small town murder, that's how it works.
And this week, which you're going to get for crime in sports, we're going to talk about
the trials and tribulations of Hulk Hogan.
He's had a lot of weird scandals and sex tapes
and his kid killed a guy and all this stuff.
We'll talk all about it.
A lot of bad decisions.
A lot of just dumb decisions for such a successful man.
And then small town murder we're going to talk about.
Back by popular demand, weird small town festivals.
I can't wait for that one.
Fantastic.
That was fun.
We did it a couple of years ago and people
keep asking about it.
So we said, why not?
Let's do it.
Patreon.com
slash crime in sports is for that and before we do the disclaimer I do want to say thank
you to everyone who came out to Sacramento and San Francisco. Incredible, the theaters
were beautiful, great staffs and the crowds you guys were awesome. Just thank you so much
for all that you did. That was really really fun And if you haven't been if you haven't been to a live show you're missing out. It is a comedy show
Yeah, ask anybody who's been there. It's it's not we got the best audience. It's whole fucking game. It's a party
It's a party. It's a two-hour party
So get your tickets and come out and see us here that said this is a comedy show it is
Yeah, we are definitely gonna make jokes and there are some bad stuff that happens.
The way we work it is we try not to cross those two things like Ghostbusters. We're
trying not to cross the streams here. You know, there's nothing funny about horrible
torture or murders, somebody getting their head cut off. That's not where the jokes
come from. They come from all the other stuff. Maybe someone's saying, I think I can get
away with cutting somebody's head off. That's pretty funny. That's bananas.
Something like that.
A bumbling police force that can't, you know, convict the guy who's obviously guilty.
Things of that nature.
A small town stupidity because we're all from small towns and who cares.
So that said though, what we don't do, what we go out of our way not to do is we don't
make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Why is that, James?
Because we're assholes.
But. But we're not scumbags.
That's how that goes.
So that sounds good to you.
I think you're going to hear a pretty crazy show this week.
If you think, you get it?
You see what I'm saying over here?
If you think that sounds good, you're going to hear a wild story.
If you think true crime and comedy should never ever ever go together, you might not
be for us or we might not be for you.
I don't know
yeah it's a bad match it's a bad tinder match maybe and maybe not though give it
a shot but no complaining later that said I think it's time to sit back
everybody let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout
let's do this everybody.
Let's go on a trip, shall we?
Okay, here we go.
We are going to Wisconsin this week.
Yeah, what's the place?
Way up north Wisconsin here,
into the North Woods this week,
to a town with a familiar name,
but from a different state, Phillips, Wisconsin.
Now, Phillips, Oklahoma, back,
I think it was episode 60,
is still one of the top five craziest episodes
we've ever done.
Just the debauchery, it's wild stuff there.
So this week in Phillips, Wisconsin,
a long time listeners will definitely be saying,
oh no, it's another Phillips, oh boy, here it comes.
Very similar.
And this one's even weirder.
So way up in northern Wisconsin
it's about three hours and 20 minutes to Minneapolis is like the closest big city and three hours
to Green Bay that's how far up this is.
Three okay so even way north of Green Bay or west north and west of Green Bay out in
the woods three hours and 20 minutes to Windsor Wisconsin which was our last episode
number 436 the unraveling of a psychopath was the last one in Wisconsin.
They're always crazy up here man.
The woods make I think it's the dark it's the cold.
Eight months of booze eight months of winter they lose their fucking minds up there.
They're such nice people but you get them in for eight months in a basement with wood
paneling they can't take it anymore. Too much curds and beer.
They can't deal with it. It's just over. Natural gas heat fumes. That'll get to you after a
while. The motto here in the heart of Price County's North woods. So this is where they
feel like this is where they went for the great outdoors to go on vacation.
That kind of thing, yeah.
It looks like it too when we do the real estate report.
Really?
Yeah.
It's beautiful.
Yeah, quickly here, we'll try to get through the town stuff pretty quick because this case
is bonkers.
But start out, it's named after a guy named Elijah B. Phillips, who was the general manager
of the Wisconsin Central Railway.
So.
Yes, he be. Wasn't really named for anything cultural.
They were like, he put a railway in,
and tracks go past here, I can take my goods to market,
name the shit after him.
So, in 1894, it was a very dry summer that year,
and there was a continued drought,
and by mid-July, things were really, really dry,
and really, really bad dry and really really bad
and they said tops and branches of tons of trees were lying in weathered heaps
after timber slashings thousands of cords of hemlock bark were piled in the
woods waiting to be hauled to the tannery. Oh shit! Added to this were
neglected hemlock trunks and inches of dry needles covering a dusty
dry soil.
Oh no!
Not good.
Even the swamps were dry.
Like everything.
They didn't even have swamp land.
Not good.
A huge fire breaks out.
Yeah, there it is.
The night before a fire had approached the north end of the city but the fire department
actually quelled it
and kept it away, but the next day, nope, it was bad.
The hemlock caught it.
Started in piles of hemlock bark 10 miles west
and just ate its way to town and just destroyed it.
Wow, destroyed everything.
Isn't hemlock fucking poison, though?
That's why they were going, it was going to the tannery.
I think it's to extract something from it
to get some sort of treatment of the tanning some sort of juice of the hemlock
Will make your leather better. I don't know. I don't know how to make leather
So it's not a yeah, I don't know what I need to how much hemlock I need
Yeah, how much hemlock do we need Jimmy? That's the problem. That's the question here
So the houses had cedar shingled roofs and they were ignited by the sparks
Yeah, and it was just the thing went up as you can imagine like a shake roofs
Oh boy, oh boy like a like a box of matches. It went up
Everything was destroyed and they had to rebuild the town after that
So that's how that goes only one review with this town because, because it's a small place. This is a very small place we're going to up here. This is the backwoods.
And the review is one star worst city ever is the name of the star. I've lived here for
about three years and I can honestly say I am sorry I ever moved here. The police force
is absolutely not desirable.
I'd like them to be hotter is what they just said.
I'm desirable, just filthy.
I want them to look like they're in a calendar,
like Buff, you know what I mean?
Not a bulge to be found.
Yeah, I want a big bulge, that sort of thing.
I won't even give this place a part of a star
with their corruption in their government.
Wow, frankly they have the compassion of a wet newspaper.
The,
what?
It's very descriptive.
The compassion.
I don't even know what the fuck that means.
Of a wet newspaper, yeah.
The personality of a wet newspaper I could see.
Yeah, all right.
But compassion of one is strange.
What?
The city of Phillips is hands down
the worst place I've ever lived in my 51 years.
Do not come into this city unless you are fond of government officials who have no integrity.
Wow.
It's hardcore.
So someone pissed her off with she tried to get a permit to like, you know, fix her back
porch or something.
They denied it and she's losing her mind.
Absolutely.
Live it.
So I wouldn't call it a city because it has 1,569 people here.
City!
City.
Very generous.
Very small place, yeah.
And it's not like a suburb of anything.
It's three hours from Green Bay, so that tells you.
And Green Bay is not a big place.
Football team aside.
It's three hours.
Your closest city is in another state.
Yeah.
That's so weird.
So more females than males here. Median age is about 40 here. A
lot of the stats are pretty normal. Racial stats here, 93.4% white, 2% black, 1.6% Asian,
1.3% Native American, 0.9% Hispanic. So it's the Northwoods of Wisconsin. I mean, what
do you want?
It's not going gonna be David. I wouldn't imagine it would be why the hell would it be?
It's you'd have to have people that go
I'm gonna move to the Northwoods of Wisconsin from wherever I'm from and that's just a lot of the people that live here are from
Here and I think there's a lot of people with temporary
Residents here like to come up in the summer for a month or rent out their lake house and that sort of thing
And a certain 51 year old who lake house and that sort of thing.
And a certain 51 year old who probably retired.
And is not happy about it.
Religion in this town, 56% are religious, so way above the normal and 31% of them are
Catholics.
Is that right?
Catholics are the Baptists of the Northwoods, as we know.
Of the Great Lakes region.
Great Lakes, Northwoods. Unemployment rate here is a little above the national average,
but not crazy. Median household income is pretty low, $40,982.
Oh.
It's 69 grand in the rest of the country, so that could be better. Median home cost,
also low. A median home cost is $162,000.
Incredibly affordable. Which is pretty damn low. And
if we've convinced you, you need to come here, you don't care about fires and bad reviews,
we have for you the Phillips, Wisconsin real estate report.
All right, your average two bedroom rental here goes for $840 a month, which is very low actually,
but I don't know how many actual two bedroom rentals there are in a town of 1200 people.
So first house, one bedroom, one bath, 240 square feet.
What is that?
Okay, it's a hunting shack basically.
Here's what it looks like inside.
I'll show you the picture and you'll see the whole thing.
The toilet.
Homemade, yeah.
Yeah, the toilet is what?
I don't know, two and a half feet from a pillow?
From the bed pillow?
You can put your feet on the bed from there.
Oh, you could, yeah.
Your bed is your squatty potty.
You could shit and put your feet up on your pillow
at the same time. Indeed.
That is really disturbing.
It's mainly for, I believe,
hunting or if you want to build something because there's 5.31 acres of woods. It has
an enclosed porch actually, which is so 240 square feet includes the enclosed porch, so
it's even smaller than that. Unless that's not included in Livable. It's got to be the
Livable, right? I think in this one, it's mentioned that it's just do it in the shade coverage it's really weird but
it's only $140,000 for that so for five acres for five acres up there in the
woods holy shit not bad here's another house four bedroom five bath there's
your t-bowl for your b-holes there 3870 square feet built in 1898 somehow survived the fire. Oh cuz that was 1894
Yeah, it's probably rebuilt upon ashes and embers. I would imagine right this house in another place would be really expensive
It's a big like it's beautiful. It looks even Alison said it looks like a brothel
It looks like a nice brothel in like New Jersey. If this was in a small town like in New Jersey
and it was a brothel,
this house would be like two and a half million dollars.
But here it is 249,900 bucks.
One tenth.
One tenth.
And then finally, three bedroom, four bath,
4,000 square feet.
Holy.
31 acres.
Now we're talking.
Right on the lake. This is like. Show me is like, yeah you rent this out to people and
shit like that. It's a pretty basic house but it's one of these things where you're
not going to be there in the winter. You're going there in the summer and you're going
to be outside 18 hours a day. It's one of those things. 1,520,000 bucks for that but
that's a lot of land. 31 acres on a lake, what do you want?
Lakeshore, yeah.
Yeah, lakefront, 31 acres, pretty goddamn nice.
Things to do, it's all about the Price County Fair, baby.
Oh, fuck the Benjamins.
Oh, hell yeah.
Providing entertainment to area residents since 1885.
Okay.
So, before the fire, they keep going.
A fire happened in the meantime.
Yeah, they say don't miss carnival rides, games, and also food, agricultural displays,
of course, free monster truck rides.
Well, that sounds, I would even think that was fun, you know, it's good.
Are they Bill's monster truck?
I want it like Grave Digger.
Do they got a good one?
If it's Grave Digger, I'm taking a ride.
What the hell?
Let's take it for a spin.
Let's crush a Honda Accord.
Can we just one?
If it's John's truck on 42s, that's not a monster truck.
No, that's just some dude going, I put these wheels on it.
That's not the same thing.
It says, free monster truck rides musical bands.
Those are the best kind of bands.
That's not one of brothers?
As opposed to bands of marauders that are coming through the town to murder us all.
Bands of brothers.
They're not as entertaining really.
Musical bands.
The rubber variety, those are bad too.
The Dirt Dash is coming.
Demolition Derby.
A competitive horse show.
Which sounds like the horses are competing hard.
Full contact.
Full contact.
Yeah, I pictured them with pads and like American Gladiators,
but horses.
You know what I mean?
A horse shooting tennis balls at another horse.
American Horse Gladiators.
Jousting.
Antique displays and antique appraisals.
Kitty Tractor Pull, where they strap tractors to children
and see just how far they can take them.
Swim to kittens.
That's right.
The first day they have entry day and youth face to face judging.
I guess they point kids at each other and go,
judge that other child, and then they tell them everything that's wrong with them and the other kid takes a turn or it's an adult either way. Yeah
I don't like what you're turning into look at you. You're a loser
Your grades are terrible and frankly are not as attractive as I thought you were gonna be
Sisters way hotter speaking of that
Speaking of that right after that. it's the 2024 Wisconsin Miss U.S. Agricultural
whatever pageant. There's that. Miss Rutabaga. And then they follow that with an animal weigh
in at the historic barn. Oh, okay. Clear out the ladies and bring in the fucking heifers. That's
what they say there. Next day there is a chainsaw carving show at 12 o'clock.
That happens like every two hours there's a chainsaw carving show.
I swear to God.
It keeps happening.
Then there's the horse show halter, whatever the hell that is.
Then there's half twisted half knot.
What is that?
Parentheses balloon guy.
It's a guy who fucking twists balloons.
Yeah.
And he's...
Because balloon knot's dirty.
Exactly.
He's got the word knot in there and he's the balloon guy.
He knows what he's doing.
He does bachelor parties too where he makes like balloon tits.
I'm the balloon knot guy.
That's how he advertises himself to that market.
Nobody wants to be the balloon guy.
I made a pussy out of balloons.
Look at that.
The little end there, that's the clip.
What do you think?
They follow that with a chainsaw carving show, of course.
Yeah, and they just carve characters from Happy Days.
That's it.
This here, this is Potsy.
I made a big Potsy.
What do you think?
You're not going to see another one of those today. It's all Fonzie, you know it. That's this here. This is potsy. I made a big potsy. What do you think?
You're not going to see another one of those today. It's all Fonzie. You know it.
This is Shirley. I didn't think much of Laverne, but this is Shirley.
Then there is the royalty from three to seven PM royalty dash twenty twenty four. Allison Dairyland contest.
OK, Allison Dairyland. What? Oh, Dairyland contest. Alice in Dairyland.
Oh, got it.
The beauty contest.
I thought it was like Allison.
No, no, Alice in Dairyland.
Then there's a karaoke contest.
Gotta have that.
Then there is a music band, a music band,
I just said, just like that.
A music band called Classic Alice,
which says it's classic rock. So that's
a Alice Cooper cover band, it sounds like. School's out for summer like 12 times.
Pepper's in, hey stupid.
Another pageant coming up, the 2024 fairest of the fairs competition.
Okay, what is that?
Who's hottest? I don't know.
Just Disney princesses? Yeah, you don't have to be like in the in the dairy industry
I guess to be that one. That's just the hottest of the hot kids tractor pull dirt dash all that kind of stuff square dancing
And it says under it do not need to know how to square dance. I'll probably help
Come on down to the line dance, You don't have to know the moves.
Yes you do.
You do probably.
And then the last two musical acts, Brady Lee, which it says next to it, country.
We got it.
We knew.
We knew.
Really?
That's not hip hop?
I would have thought that's hardcore rap.
Brady Lee coming in there.
And then Shane Kronberger who plays country classic rock and blues as
well.
That's it?
That's it.
Those are the bands you're going to get.
That's bad.
There's a lot of pageants though Jimmy so calm down.
What the fuck?
How much do you want?
Don't worry.
Marie is going to karaoke fucking picture with her boyfriend.
No shit.
So crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, the goings on of
the illegal matters, property crime slightly above average, which is strange for a town
of 1200 people. I don't know how that happens.
Because it's per capita, I guess, but why are you doing anything?
It's usually much lower in these towns though because how much crime can you commit?
Everybody knows you.
Yeah, if there's any kind of crime rate, that's a good portion of the town. You know, everybody knows.
If anybody's missing anything or something's broken,
you start to ask some questions.
Jim, what the hell are you taking my shit for?
Right.
I saw you on my Ring camera.
Yeah.
How'd you do that?
Very creative of me, by the way, to say Jim on that one,
when you're Jimmy and I'm James.
So.
They are embedded in this show.
It's deep.
Good Lord.
So violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime
is slightly below average.
So not that far below average either.
Just slightly.
Yeah. So I mean, they have a higher crime rate
than the average on, that's just wild
for a tiny town of 1200 people on a lake in the woods.
Is it like drunken, like running your outboard motor while you're shit faced?
Is that a lot of them?
I'm not even kidding.
Is that illegal?
Yeah.
Some are people going up there and just drinking beer
and messing around and people on vacation from Milwaukee.
Is that the problem?
Well, there's more than that too.
There's somebody underneath the water
in a fucking hockey mask too because the murder,
and that shit is too high.
It's way too high.
Yeah.
So that said, let's talk about some very disturbing murder.
And I will say on this one, this is especially disturbing, this case.
So we'll let you know when something's going to happen that's real, real disturbing.
Give you a second here.
But it's pretty, there's some bad, bad stuff and it's very descriptive
because he describes a lot of this. So let's do this. I have to say right away to some
very, very good work here from this book that I'm going to quote quite often. So we'll
just put it up front. So I don't have to say this is from that. Death by Cannibal,
Minds with an Appetite for Murder is the name of the book by Peter Davidson,
which is of course, Pete Davidson's much less famous and successful alter ego about
writing true crime books.
Very dry, no jokes in them at all.
So that said, here we go.
This guy is disturbing.
Let's talk right about a disturbed person right away John Ray Webber
Okay, John Ray Webber is
He was born on November 4th 1963
He's the youngest of two kids. So not like he was ten kids and got lost in the shuffle or anything
It was his mother's second marriage. It was he and his older sister Kathy here. And they also had four half siblings from their mother's previous marriage, but two
whole whatever, brother and sister. So really he did have their six brothers and sisters.
The people there.
I can see, I don't know. We're not like, you know, we're both trash. So we consider our half
sisters and brothers obviously brothers and sisters.
Yeah, totally.
So I don't ever go, well, that's my half brother.
That's still be weird to me.
My half sister is closer to me than my actually full blood sister.
I don't even talk to that woman.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
See what I mean?
That's what happens.
So the Webbers, his family family they're pretty known in the area
They own property in town. They have an 80 acre lot that they own
Oh, that's where they have which is about 10 miles north of town and they used to own and operate the only food market in Phillips
Too they ran the grocery store. So everybody knows them the whole family for sure
It was called Webbers grocery eveny even. So they knew.
They got 80 acres.
Yeah, 80 acres.
So his parents, Lawrence and Marguerite,
it seemed to be the small town,
kinda idyllic 60s lifestyle.
It didn't seem, yeah, there was no debauchery going around.
They didn't have like wild parties
that the kids were like doing coke and shit like off of somebody's ass or anything. They didn't have wild parties that the kids were doing coke and shit off of somebody's
ass or anything.
It wasn't like, what's her name?
The mama's and the papa's daughter, the one that was on, Mackenzie Phillips there.
It was like, that wasn't the childhood.
That book was-
She had a bad childhood.
I think that book is more disturbing than the story, but that's a whole other issue.
It might be.
Yeah.
So bad. That's how everything was going here.
John, though, everybody's fine.
Kathy does well.
The parents are nice people.
Everybody likes him.
John's not right from the start.
Something's wrong with this kid from the very start.
They said, not only was he kind of just the outcast
of the family in terms of his behavior being kind of out
there, they said his behavior was just bizarre. It wasn't even like normal kid stuff a
lot of the stuff. You know it wasn't like oh he doesn't listen and he won't go to
bed. I caught him watching TV, caught him watching TV when he said he was going to
bed or something. No no no it was really weird. All of the other kids too are like
popular and successful and not him.
He's got an older half brother named Leslie who graduated with honors from
the United States Military Academy in 1973. So that's pretty tough and so that
was when John was 10 so he saw that as an example and absolutely was like
still yeah right. Now this guy also is a star distance runner
and won the Army Athletic Association Trophy,
which is awarded each year to West Point's
most outstanding athlete.
He's the best athlete at West Point.
Yeah, and pretty fucking smart too.
He served five years as a commissioned officer in the Army
and earned a PhD and was a university professor
and department chairman.
Leslie.
So very successful like siblings, that sort of thing.
Another sibling, a half sister, was a straight A student
through college and all that kind of thing.
All the kids do so well by their parents
and then the youngest, John, is just a disaster.
Complete disaster.
He was the kid that everybody picked on in school.
They said he would never stand up for himself
and the whole thing is why he was getting picked on
to begin with was he was always whining and crying.
Like before anybody picked on him.
He was the kid in like second grade
just started crying in class.
So that's gonna get you picked on.
Especially back in the day,
it's really gonna get you picked on.
And he was also, he wasn't athletic,
he was terrible in school.
His own mother referred to him as the dummy of the family.
Oh, Jesus, mom, what the fuck?
Yeah, his mom's pretty, she's honest,
I'll say that much for her.
Yeah, sounds like it.
Through this whole thing, definitely she said that.
And on several occasions, he used to just run away. I don't even know if they looked for him or if they were just like
Man, that's wow. All right. Let's concentrate on the good kids, but
Is he gone? Yeah shit. Ah, there he is. He's back again. Never mind
See he doesn't bring enough food with him next time
let's let's keep a bunch of cold cuts in the fridge or something that way he has a
Get far enough away where he can't come back
Anyone of those those bicycles with the icebox on the front that Mexican ice cream out cuts in the fridge or something. That way he has a get far enough away where he can't come back.
Anyone of those those bicycles with the icebox on the front that Mexican ice cream.
They sell ice cream and yeah one of those deals. The old Italian icebox is there.
Yeah, it's a fucking great bike.
Yeah. So he's also a chronic bed wetter.
Oh no.
Yeah, he's he's got the whole the, the classic serial killer triad there.
He's got everything there and flashing rainbow colors.
It's just all over the place.
It's not good.
Yeah, bright neon flashing signs of all of these things, even though that's been discredited
as a real thing.
Right.
It's not really a thing.
It's just fascinating that they all have it though.
It's still an awfully big coinkydink on all this shit.
Sure, sure, and the fuck. fascinating that they all have it though. It's still an awfully big coinkydink on all this shit.
In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital
to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car
to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy
Jane Scott?
From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this
one and many more.
Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle
in theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And
with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation
Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation
Y ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media
will have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.
Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier.
I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx,
and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast.
We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part One
and watching along with Part Two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st.
Bye bye.
The official Jinkx Podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.
His parents tried to help him with the bed wedding too. That's the thing. He had supportive
parents with this whole deal. That's where a lot of this stops with people. It's how this, even if they have this stuff,
how is it reacted to?
And if the parents are supportive
and try to help them usually,
then they don't turn into psychopaths.
I think all of them, though, for the most part,
everyone that has had bedwetting in their past,
the parents are supportive up until, I don't know,
time five or 10 that they're washing sheets.
Then at that point, they're like, how do you not feel this?
How do you not know this is happening?
Some of them, though, they would get very abusive
and beat the shit out of the kids for that,
which would then tie some weird thing to it.
But I think that's just frustration,
then going, you know what it feels like when you piss.
When you're doing it in your sleep
and you're getting it all over the place,
how do you not know?
And then they just get frustrated and beat up.
At the same time, obviously they don't though.
That's, you know what I mean?
They're not.
What do you mean?
Oh, they don't feel it.
They don't feel it, yeah.
It's not their fault.
Yeah, but again, as a parent, you just feel,
how do you not?
I think it's just frustration over time and time again.
And, cause how many, you've peed in a bed before,
admit it.
I honestly, I'm not a drinker, so no, I really haven't, no.
The only times I've ever pissed in my sleep,
I was dead sober, James.
Oh, well I've, you might've get your innards checked here.
Get all your pipes checked out, Jimmy.
I've honestly never peed in bed.
Really?
No.
And it wasn't like, I didn't evacuate everything.
I woke up in the middle of it,
probably right at the tip top of it.
Just in a pile of shit and all that.
Should be laying there, what happened?
I'm sober, this is ridiculous.
It's all evacuated, man.
A spleen is laying next to you.
Because in my dream I was peeing.
I was, you know what I mean, I was over a toilet.
And then I woke up and I was like, I'm not, stop.
Oh, interesting.
It's a pee dream.
And you cap it off and run to the bathroom,
change your pants, all of it.
I kind of wish I had peed at some point,
just to, I want to relate to this.
Never?
No, I don't know.
I can't think of one time.
I always thought people were just drunk and they peed.
Now my brain's going to think it's
OK to pee if you're not shit faced and I'm going to end up
peeing.
You've ruined me, Jimmy.
I think maybe two, two, maybe three, I don't know.
I know it's not just one, but I'm,
Wow.
And I do know that I've never pissed all the piss.
That might be too much pee for an adult, I'm not sure.
Just, I was an adult, but I wasn't like,
it was pre-30.
I get like, after some kids,
ladies sometimes have a hard time with the hall,
but I think that's like when they're laughing.
I don't know if that's when they're sleeping.
I'm not sure if they have that causes P dreams or not.
I don't know.
Sneeze, cough and laugh.
I think all of those trigger it, but I don't know.
It's very strange that, uh, and every time I've done it, it was, it was in a
dream where there was, there was paying involved.
Let's go get your valves looked at when we're done here.
What do you say?
I'll get you all checked out.
You might have, you might just need some new seals
or something in there.
Throw a new O-ring.
So pop a new O-ring in there.
He's like, oh man, look at you.
That's why, Jesus, what do you think?
What do you expect to happen?
You're lucky to be alive.
Jesus, look at this.
Like a mechanical tell you.
Everything could have leaked out everywhere.
This is horrible.
I can't believe this is holding.
Could have lost all your amniotic fluid ever.
Just all the fluids could have come out.
So he did not overcome it, this guy here.
He definitely did not overcome being in bed.
And this was a big problem for him.
It was a large problem for him.
His parents installed a special device
that would sound an alarm when he started to piss in bed. But it didn't help because he could keep peeing. So he also liked to
set fires as a problem. That's two out of the three there. He set his first one when
he was about four years old and yeah, he would have burned the house down on many occasions
if the family members didn't quickly, they had fire extinguishers because they knew he was a fire starter.
So they put out his fires.
This is like, what the fuck, man?
He was a flamer.
This is why, yes he was.
Much like Patrice O'Neill in Arrested Development.
T-bone.
That's my favorite thing ever.
It's a great line.
When he was in eighth grade,
the desk he was sitting at at school burst into flames.
So they figured he did it. It wasn't like, it wasn't the devil, just you know, some sort of weird
fluids. He also liked to steal shit a lot. Number one, he stole money from his own parents grocery
store, which is really nice. His grandfather had left that to to
his grandmother and also his father and that's how that happened. So people didn't want to
play with him. You know, he's covered in piss and starting fires all the time is not the
most popular guy in school probably. Yeah. So he spent a lot of time alone in his room
where he imagined he had a friend. He had an imaginary friend.
But not in like a nice way like let's play checkers.
It was like, you know, it was like red rum, red rum.
It was that kind of imaginary friend.
It was much different.
You got some matches?
How about a Bic?
Let's get out of here.
Come on.
Let's get out of here.
That looks flammable.
Light the fire.
Light the fire.
Just listening to the doors over and over again and just constantly just light the fire. Just listening to the doors over and over again
and just constantly just light my fire.
He, the imaginary friend appeared in the fifth grade
and then never went away.
And he'll stick around, as we'll talk about.
So he'd blame his imaginary friend when he'd get in trouble.
Really?
Yes, he'd set something on fire and he'd say, well, my imaginary friend did it.
I didn't do it. So they were like, Hmm, all right. How do you deal with that?
The words imaginary friend should that's rooted in reality. Those two words.
He would, he wouldn't say that he would say, you know, he would say the Frank did
it. And you know, it wasn't me. It was Frank. And they go, yeah, oh wow.
It's Frank, which is, you know, much like the shining here, but that kid was actually having problems
He his sister Kathy would often hear him speaking
speaking in two distinct voices
Yeah, and carrying on serious conversations even arguments. Hell yeah with himself. Okay. This is as a child
This is in like the seventh grade. Yeah with himself. Okay. This is as a child. This isn't like the seventh grade
That is awesome. That is
Crazy, that's crazy
That's the definition of crazy. Yeah, they ask you my talk. We would have loved him
People a psychiatrist will ask you do you talk to yourself and that you can say yes and they go do do you answer yourself back?
And that's when there's a that's when it starts to be a problem
And then the third question do you do it in another voice? Yeah?
That's extra fucked up. That's extra fucked up
This is she even caught him talking and gesturing first as himself and then someone called
Nautis and a TAS which is
Satan spelled backwards Jimmy of course it is, which is Satan spelled backwards, Jimmy.
Of course it is, everybody.
It's Satan spelled backwards, everybody.
What else would it be?
Yeah, or that fine material, Satan, spelled backwards.
Satan spelled backwards.
Isn't Satan with an I?
S-A-T-I-N?
No, no, N-A-T-A-S, that is Satan.
Yeah, and Satan's with an I.
So, also he's got some weird, soon as his dick starts getting hard, he starts getting some
weird perversions.
It's not going to be all normal.
He likes just straight missionary, but then he's super weird and argues with himself in
Satan's voice.
No, no.
He's got some seriously bizarre shit.
A lot of his fantasies involved his sister Cathy as well.
Oh no, yeah, because that's the closest girl.
That's the one and that's who he's fantasizing about here.
When he was home alone, he liked to dress up in her clothes and pretend that he was
a woman at the time, but he'd also fantasize about tying her up, torturing her and raping
her.
He's BTK.
This guy is BTK plus David Parker Ray divided by Ted Bundy
is the best way to describe him.
And if we'll talk plenty about that because the same psychiatrist will talk to both of
these guys because he's like, he said, I talked to Ed Gain. Here's a guy just as sick. I got
to talk to because, oh yeah, no, this guy guy if he wasn't caught there is one little thing that makes it so he gets caught if he wasn't caught at the
Time he was caught this would have been a fury everybody you'll be shocked
You don't know I've never heard this guy's name at the end of this episode. Well. You'll just go. Holy fuck
How do I not know this guy is because he's insane
So yeah, he wanted to torture and tie up and rape his sister
When he was 13, Kathy, his sister, found a stack of bondage magazines while she was cleaning his room one day.
13!
In the 70s?
1976.
13, he's got bondage mags.
How the fuck?
How would he even know that's an option at 13?
Right.
That's so crazy.
But then again, BTK did.
He knew what he wanted to do early. These
publications were filled with, you know, it's all tied up ladies. You know what it is.
You get the idea.
Shit like that. At first she didn't know what to do. She's two years older. So she was 15.
She's like, what the fuck is this? She didn't even know this existed. She's from a tiny
town in Wisconsin in the 70s. She doesn't know.
But then she just threw them away.
She threw it all in the garbage, but he just got more and would hide it better after that.
Yeah, if he's got it, he knows where to get it.
Yeah, exactly.
And now he goes, oh, I just got to hide it better so nobody throws it out.
The other thing, he gets to be really big.
He's 6'6", so he's a fucking... Jesus. So he can throw Ed Kemper in there as well. He's a big guy.
You can't take anything away from that guy. That's what I mean.
Once he gets to be an adult, it's like he's this big six foot six,
piss stained, angry, fire starting, no friend,
rape fantasizing, no friend having sister fucking want to be weirdo.
That's a, he's a weird cat, man.
So he gets older and shit gets darker for him.
He doesn't wanna just tie people up now.
Now it's about how he's gonna hurt them
when he ties them up, just like BTK did.
And he wants, cause now the bondage mags
don't have the, it's not hardcore enough for him.
He's like, this is pussy shit.
This is weak.
She looks like she could be enjoying this. That's terrible, I don't want that.
She's tied up.
Now what?
Now what's he gonna do to her?
He doesn't want to, you know,
to have any kind of joy out of the woman.
He doesn't want her to enjoy it.
He wants her to be terrified.
That's what he's looking for here.
Also, that's what the magazine does.
It just shows you a pose, but then,
now you've gotta use your imagination.
And that's kinda like the fun of all those magazines.
Exactly.
You gotta put yourself in there.
What would I do to her?
Yeah.
Okay she's in that position.
I'm about to I'm just about to fly in the frame here and you know that's.
Here I come.
Here I come.
All right.
That's what you're doing.
We're both about to have so much fun I swear.
He sees these and he's like hmm
How can I have fun and not her lame? Yeah, this is lame. She looks like she's into it gross
He imagined these are his fantasies shoving knives bottles and safety pins into women's rectums and vaginas That was his uh his fantasies that he wanted
This is as a teenager. Yeah, I mean I don't understand that I don't get wanted. This is as a teenager. Yeah. I mean.
I don't understand that.
I don't get it.
This is way advanced sexual fantasy for teens.
As a teenager, you're just, any sex, it would be great.
Your fantasies are like a woman that's naked.
That's a fantasy.
That's the fantasy.
Yeah.
I'm on board with everything he's done so far up until.
Let's you have sex with her.
Yeah, fantasizing about his sister and then this shit.
This is where it's like, it's going so far off.
I loved starting fires.
When we'd go camping, that's my favorite part of camping.
My favorite part of camping is hearing that whoosh.
That is so awesome.
That's an appropriate place for a fire.
Yeah, yeah.
You wouldn't go home and go,
I bet my father's den would go up just like that thing
and then light that on fire.
That's where it gets up to be a problem.
I don't want to light the fire in the living room.
Huge bonfires when I was a kid. That was huge. It was big. But like I said, once somebody
lit, my one friend lit an entire field on fire, he got in trouble. He had to go talk
to somebody for a few months. Control burns are sick. They're so much fun.
He had to go every Thursday for a few months to talk to a person about that.
Talked to people a lot.
Yeah, this is when he was like 12.
I remember this.
We were like, ooh, that's a bad place to start a fire.
So these are his fantasies.
He would also spend hours writing down
all these fantasies in tons of spiral notebooks
that he would then hide away.
Yeah, he'd write out these long, elaborate scenarios of what he wanted to do with people. No. No. No. No. No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No. No. No a slick ad James. That's what I mean.
He's totally BTK. Yeah he's tracing it and then creating his own thing. And then
tying yeah making a little little bindings on her and fucking her.
Yeah gags and shit. It's the same exact thing as BTK slick ads. This guy is I'm
telling you toy box killer BTK and Ted Bundy with with
Ed Kemper's size almost. So he's a weird guy. For his birthday one year, his parents gave him a tape
recorder, which would be fine, except he uses it in very weird ways. He immediately would make voice
recordings of his fantasies. And this would be a habit that he would have through his whole life here of making recordings of things he wants
to do and things he's done.
Turned him on a lot, then he would listen to himself talking about it and that would
turn him on.
He would look through the, he like, mainly he's masturbating to these fantasies and bondage
magazines and shit like that, but he fantasized about Cathy the most here.
What is going on?
Yeah, from the time he was 10 until he turned about 15,
her bras and bikini swimsuits and underwear
would just disappear all the time.
Oh boy.
One day she found a giant, just a cache of them
all cut up in his room.
He had taken all of her stuff and cut them up into pieces and like saved them and had
a whole...
Oh my.
That is creepy.
If I'm Cathy, I cannot wait to go to college.
I am going to get the best grades.
I'm getting this far the fuck away from...
San Diego State is where I'm going.
Is that as far as I can go in this country?
What's farther, San Diego or Miami?
I can't decide because I'm going to go to one of those two.
This is ridiculous.
FSU is too far north.
Too far north.
No, I can't do Tallahassee at all.
I got to do...
I need Miami or bus.
I got to be able to jump on a boat and flee to another Cuba or Puerto Rico or somewhere
away from here.
Oh my God.
At the drop of a hat.
So very, very strange stuff here.
At least two occasions he put his 22 caliber rifle to Cathy's head and threatened to pull
the trigger because he was so frustrated that he wanted to rape her and torture her.
She knows.
Oh yeah.
She's certainly aware.
Oh she's aware.
She found her underwear.
I mean she knew. Yeah, yeah. She knew it was up. That's a red flag. That's a red flag, especially after seeing all the magazines
He's into and shit and then you see your underwear cut up. You're like he wants to tie me up with pieces of my
Oh, I get it. I'm in the one of the bag. Oh, that's not good
So damn it both times she managed to talk him down and get him to put the rifle down. On another occasion, he smashed her over the head with a beer bottle.
She said, quote, I was extremely afraid of him.
Well, no shit.
No shit.
Yeah.
She said many, many times she was so scared she would lay awake in her bed all night,
you know, jumping at every sound in the house waiting for him to come in.
And on the night that he bashed her over the head
with a beer bottle, he had loaded the back
of the Ford Bronco of the family with clothesline chains,
plastic tape, scissors, a shovel, an ax, and his 22.
Disposal kit.
That's a bad day, yeah.
It's a bunch of, yep.
He's gonna dispose.
She said everything was red.
There's not a thing in that kit that's not for it.
That's exactly, no, not even like and a bag of Cheetos. You know what I mean? Like, and
some Cool Ranch Doritos. Like that would have been-
Some barbecue corn nuts. Nothing.
Yeah, and some fishing worms, some night crawlers. Like something in there to make it look like
he was doing anything else.
You could just say, yeah, I'm outdoorsy.
Nope, not even. She said everything was ready for me to be hauled away in it.
Oh, Lord.
This is disturbing, obviously.
He's a child still.
This is like, he's in like ninth grade doing all this.
What the fuck?
So finally, I don't know how, but it took this long
for the parents to realize maybe he needs some mental help,
not just a pee alarm.
Yeah, not just the humid alarm. Yeah, not just the humidifier.
Yeah, well, he peed again.
No. Humidity went up in the boys' room, you know what that means.
There he goes, he's peeing again. 82%, way too human.
It's a dry night tonight.
So, they said he's mentally ill.
They have him committed to a clinic in Marshfield, which admitted him to the child adolescent
unit.
He was treated by a clinical psychologist and according to the doctor, he was uncooperative
and resisted treatment.
He's like, I like jerking off to weird things and wanting to kill and torture and fuck my
sister.
It's awesome.
It's too cold in here.
I would like a fire, please.
Good lord.
Yeah.
Is it?
Are you chilly?
You got like just like a magazine, some old newspapers laying around, maybe a bottle
of lighter fluid because I could really spark something up.
The psychologist offered a prediction on John.
He wrote, quote, John would one day wind up
in jail for seriously harming a woman. Great job.
I mean, it's obvious. It's all he wants to do when he's trying to treat him. He's like,
no, I don't want treatment. I'm going to torture and kill and rape my sister. Awesome, huh?
Oh my God. He doesn't care. The summer between his junior
and senior year of high school, he was admitted to the hospital again for psychiatric treatment.
The doctors at the hospital here prescribed him an anti-psychotic drug, or a bunch of
them actually.
Despite the medication, he was still difficult for them to treat.
Even though they were medicating him, he still wasn't cooperative.
Wow.
He lied to the doctors and wouldn't be honest at all in the therapy sessions.
His therapist said that he was a classic sociopath, just you guys, and a psychopath for that matter.
So after all of these weeks of intensive, five weeks of intensive inpatient treatment,
he's transferred to a group home in La Crosse. While he's there, he enrolls in high school for his senior year and he graduates in 1981.
So this is why I feel like an idiot because all this guy's problems, he wants to torture
and fucking kill his sister and he has all these things and he talks to himself in multiple
voices.
He still managed to pull it together enough to get an actual diploma
on graduation day and I couldn't fucking pull that off.
Isn't that sad?
Yeah.
The man spent his entire childhood jerking off to his sister, James.
Yeah, still.
While he was doing that, he still had more time to do his homework than I apparently
did.
Kid knows more about the Magna Carta.
Wow. As soon as he graduates,
he enlists in the US Army for three years. For some reason, despite his long and very
meticulously well-documented history of mental illness, they said, come on in, fella. Yeah,
what is that? I think they accepted it. Here's some very high powered weaponry.
Let's teach you how to use it.
Want to learn how to throw a grenade?
It starts big fires.
Have you heard of napalm?
This is wow.
He did well in basic training and was trained as a helicopter mechanic.
So he's served honorably for three years, first at Fort Carson in Colorado, then in
Germany.
But while in the service, he also developed a huge drinking problem.
That's what, which kind of numbed the rest of the stuff.
But it also kind of just delayed it.
It's still there.
But he also, you know, he was experimenting a little with a little acid, smoked a little
weed over there too.
Also started smoking two packs a day over there.
Attavoy.
Two packs of German cigarettes?
Jesus.
Just anywhere in the army.
I don't know how anybody can smoke two packs a day.
That's a lot.
That's all they smoke.
I've never smoked two packs in a day in my life.
Really?
No.
I've done that.
Really?
It's so much.
On a boat.
It would just seem like you'd be ah, by the end of the day,
just, I'm just dried out.
You're pouring beer down it, you know what I mean?
And on a boat, you're outdoors, there's no restriction.
You never go inside, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, you can just sit there the whole time.
Yeah, I get that.
It's easy to smoke a pack of cigarettes on a boat.
That goes no time.
Yeah, I could see that just sitting there,
especially if you're... and you know what?
I've never smoked two packs. I've smoked two packs with other people taking cigarettes. I'm saying too. Yeah, that's for sure
But the sit gone through two packs two packs to the head is like you'd be like
Yeah, you know you wake up and can't breathe
No, that's Don Draper smoking where you know you up and as soon as you wake up, you do like 15 seconds of coughing
to get out all that shit from yesterday,
and then you light up one.
And then light another.
Yeah.
So it ended in 1984.
He returned home to Phillips.
And he moves back into his old room with his parents' house
in his parents' house, 417 South Avon Avenue.
Kathy was gone, thank god for her. And so he's the only one living there. It's him and his parents. house, 417 South Avon Avenue. Kathy was gone, thank God for her.
Right.
And so he's the only one living there. It's him and his parents. That's it. So he hangs out with
his dad a little bit and goes hunting for deer and fishing for trout and all that kind of thing.
They'd camp out in the woods sometimes, him and his dad. So he knows the area woods and all that
very well. They were trekking through the woods here
and as soon as he gets home, they're just boom,
right into fishing and hunting and all that sort of thing.
He has to get a job though, after a few weeks obviously.
So he gets a job at the Kyoga Reef Factory.
Oh.
In nearby Fife Field, Fife Field, not Fit.
Yeah, those Kyoga Reefs. Oh. In nearby Fy-field, Fy-field, not fit. F-I-F-field.
The Kyoga wreaths are like a sought after.
It's a big deal.
Is it a big deal?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Jimmy's a big wreath guy, you have no idea.
You didn't know?
When you go to his house, it's a lot of wreaths.
It's all wreaths in one room, all Kyogas.
It's a disturbing amount of wreaths.
Yeah.
Well those are his prize wreaths.
So he worked alongside a woman named Caroline Lenz It's a disturbing amount of wreaths. Yeah. Well, those are his prize wreaths.
So he worked alongside a woman named Caroline Lenz and her son Gene.
So through them, he meets 18-year-old Emily, who is Gene's twin sister and the oldest of
their kids.
They also have another daughter named Carla, who's a few years younger.
She's four years younger. Okay. So he's attracted to both of them, of course. I mean, yeah,
Carla and I guess they're both, uh, you know, pretty attractive. They said Emily is five
foot four, 113 pounds and blonde and looks like Farrah Fawcett. And he's like, I want
to fuck her. So he, she's real like warm and outgoing and shit and he's not.
He's real like a, he's a weird guy obviously.
He's got weird fantasies and you know, pee in his pants.
So Emily Lenz, she's born in 1965.
They get together pretty quick though and by the time he's 22 and she's 19, they get
married on August 6th 1986 so this
is two years after meeting ish carl is a yes Wow he married a hot chick somehow
everybody out there we make these announcements all the time gentlemen
upset you can't find anybody you're not trying hard enough. Have you considered making a wreath? Have you ever thought about that?
Because I feel like that the path to a hot chick is paved through wreath making somehow
So how'd you treat your sister be a little nicer?
Yeah, or no actually no beat your sister with beer bottles and threaten to murder her and then you get, I don't understand this at all, but he ends up getting on chicks somehow. It's crazy.
Carla was one of her bridesmaids there, the younger sister, the family, the lenses approved
to the marriage. They were into it and you know, we're welcoming and all that kind of
thing because they worked with him and they said he was a hard worker. So hard worker
will continue to work hard and you know, be a decent guy. So right before the wedding though, he's a little bit weird.
He bought, not a little bit weird, a lot of bit weird.
John had bought a 1977 Pontiac Sunbird from a local teenager.
A 77?
77 Sunbird.
Not a good car.
Not a great car at all.
No. Those are not a good car. Not a great car at all. No
I don't know what kind of wreath-making salary he's got going on but not enough to buy a better car. So where's the firebird man?
he bought this off a teenager named John Kenny jr. And
Weber here John got super fucking pissed when the car's transmission wouldn't work properly. So
two days after John purchased the car and about you know a day and a half
after he went ballistic and freaking out and saying what a son of a bitch he was
and losing his mind, this teen is run over by a freight train. Oh no. It's just I
mean. Couldn't even get revenge. The kid or, Oh, that's the thing.
Oh, it was thrown on a track.
He'd had been apparently by the way he was found, he must've been lying on.
He didn't get hit like, you know, he was trying to get across the tracks.
He must've been lying down on the tracks and just didn't move as the train
barreled toward him with the engineer frantically blowing the whistle to get the
fuck out of the way. An autopsy indicated that he was drunk and it was ruled an accident
Wisconsin Wisconsin so John told Emily quote he got what he deserved yeah Emily
figured whoop, unfortunate coincidence.
That's the way, I like the way the author of the book put it,
so I'm gonna use that too.
Unfortunate coincidence, whoops, what happened here?
So John and Emily, they have a house at 475 South Avon,
which is only a block away from John's parents' house.
Right, from mom's house.
Right there.
This house is owned by John's parents actually and they
pay $200 a month in rent, John and Emily. So that's not bad. It's a pretty sweet gig.
Not bad at all. They fight constantly. It's not a marriage. A 22 year old psychopath and
a nice girl from the wreath factory aren't going to get along. Weird, right? Interesting.
Emily caught John in lies about all sorts of shit,
mainly drinking and his collection of bondage magazines,
which she didn't like him having around.
Yeah.
A few weeks before-
What do you lie about with those?
I don't have bondage magazines.
They're not mine.
Yeah, they're not mine, that giant stack of them
that have John written on every single page.
And I have actually pictures of me mounting these women and shit that's not me.
Those aren't pictures of my sister in there. No no definitely not when I say Cathy and put an arrow to one of the chicks all tied up and shit.
I don't mean it. Yeah. So a few weeks before the wedding she intercepts a
letter to Carla from John. Carla, her little sister. In it,
in this letter, he apologizes for trying to kiss her and begs her not to tell Emily.
Okay. Emily says, what the fuck is this? And he said, no, no, that's true. I was drunk
when I wrote that. Not I was drunk when I did that shit that I apologize for. I didn't do that stuff.
I was so drunk.
I wrote a letter apologizing for something I didn't do.
It's a screenplay. I'm making a movie.
He asked somebody's advice and they were like, say you were drunk. And he's like,
okay. And did the wrong. He wasn't. He said he was drunk at the wrong time.
I feel like.
So wow.
I mean, come on, man.
So he's got a lot of problems.
He's drinking more and more and more.
He's working as a laborer at Winterwood Products, which is a factory that makes tables, park
benches and wheelbarrow handles.
Very specific items.
Yeah.
Can you make me a nightstand?
No.
No.
An armoire?
Fuck no.
No.
Absolutely not.
What I can make you is a table,
and it's probably the same plain table.
It's probably not like different designs.
A table, a park bench, or a wheelbarrow handle.
Well, see, my axe handle's broken.
Well, can you double a wheelbarrow handle?
Because that's what I'll make you.
BYOW.
Or BYOB.
Bring your own barrow.
It's a fucking...
He gets a second job at Markquip,
which is a factory that produced machinery
for the paper, board, and carton industry.
It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast,
Morbid.
We're your hosts.
I'm Alina Urquhart.
And I'm Ash Kelly.
And our show is part true crime, part spooky,
and part comedy.
The stories we cover are well researched.
He claimed and confessed to officially killing up
to 28 people.
With a touch of humor.
I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called malevolent deity,
that is pretty great.
A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.
This mother f***er lied.
Like a liar.
Like a liar.
And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal.
Or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious
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You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.
Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever
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podcasts.
Welcome to the small town of Chinook,
where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.
In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide
when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.
Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,
but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.
She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.
Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible
criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing
secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very
own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.
With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran,
Shnook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry
app or on Apple Podcasts.
It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts, I'm Alina Urquhart.
And I'm Ash Kelly.
And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.
The stories we cover are well researched,
He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people,
with a touch of humor,
I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called malevolent deity,
that is pretty great.
a dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit
with a little bit of cursing.
This mother-fucker lied.
Like a liar.
Like a liar.
And if you're a weirdo like us,
and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal,
or you love to hop in the way back machine
and dissect the details of some of history's
most notorious crimes,
you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.
Follow Morbid on the Wondery app
or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can listen to episodes early and ad free
by joining Wondery Plus and the Wondery app
or on Apple podcasts.
So it produces the machinery that make cups
and paper plates and shit.
So milk cartons, milk cartons and shit like that.
Like an end up.
Yeah, it's the machine that makes the machine that makes shit.
He builds the machine that makes Dixie cups.
He builds kind of, yeah, I think so.
Yeah, that would be the way.
So he ends up at one point after a shift, he hangs out with his friends at a bar.
He has five, six beers at a bar.
So what he would do, he'd go after the shift, have a few beers, and then he'd have a 12-pack, grab a 12-pack on the way home, drink that at night too.
Holy.
So he'd be an 18-pack in every night about.
Good God.
At this point, he begins pissing the bed again.
There you go.
He can blame himself now. When you've had an 18-pack and you pissed the bed, it's because
you had an 18-pack. That's why.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's no good heard plenty about that that has nothing to do with
Reasons there's no reason other than full yeah, and it's got an empty and you're in unable to move that's who that is
Yeah, you're your little alarm inside of you that says wake up and pee is like trying to shake you
But you're out cold your shit face drunk. Yeah, it, well, I don't know, he won't wake up.
Just piss here, I guess I'll just piss here.
We don't have any more room.
We don't have any more room.
We got nothing?
This is all we got?
All right.
If we start it just keeps going?
Initiating launch procedure.
Three, two, one.
There we go.
Ruin the sheets.
Okay.
There we go.
He also cannot perform sexually with Emily either.
Oh no.
The only way he could achieve orgasm is by masturbating.
Oh really?
Only masturbating, because he can have whatever,
look at whatever he wants.
But for some reason,
his hot wife isn't good enough for him here.
Do you think he respects her or loves her too much
to do awful things to her and
he just wants to do awful things?
I don't think she would let him do awful things.
She freaked out about him having a bondage magazine.
So if he says, I'm going to tie you up, she's going to go, no, you're not.
That's gross.
No, I'm 19 and pretty innocent.
That's disgusting.
I'm not doing that.
That's a bit far.
Yep.
So Emily tried to be reassuring, but he felt humiliated because he couldn't
fuck her and at all here. So he, uh, they split up two months after they had gotten
married. All this happens in the first two months they're married, by the way, all this
stuff. What? That's two months of marriage. That's not eight weeks. That's not 15 years.
Three kids, you know, got laid off twice. They had to move into their parents' basement,
then move into another place. Air mattresses, none of that.
This is two months of living in a house together.
All this has happened.
It goes from figuring it out to alcoholic pissing the bed that wants to, that has to
beat off?
Can't hold it together.
She moves back in with her parents.
And so John went to the obvious source who you'd go to for marital advice, a 16 year old.
Yeah. Carla, obviously. She's got all the answers. That's who he goes to for marital advice.
He asked her sister. Yeah. He said she was a good listener and wanted them to patch up their marriage.
And yeah, Carla, even their mom said that Carla was always willing to listen to other people's
problems. Okay. That happened all the time.
He would talk to her and they were like,
well, that's good, he's trying to,
maybe she has insight into Emily and maybe that'll help.
You know what I mean?
Maybe she can deliver Emily's message.
Then November 12th, 1986 comes along here.
It's about 11 o'clock at night
and Carla gets a telephone call and answers the phone
at home.
She was at home watching her nine-year-old brother while her mother and her brother worked
the night shift at the Phillips Plastic Corporation.
And her father, Gene Senior, was a long-haul trucker who wasn't going to be home for days.
So she's got to watch the kid.
She gets a phone call, puts puts on her jacket and leaves the house
She told her brother she'll be gone for a few minutes, and she'll be right back
Okay now next morning mom and brother get home from work, and she's not around nowhere to be found
Brother said she never came back. He went to bed, so they searched the house. They look all around
they call the sheriff's they look all around, they call
the sheriff's department to call the reporter missing. And right away, the sheriff said
he didn't like the looks of it. And it seemed like foul play, obviously, which she's going
to go out for five minutes, talk to someone and then fall in a bottomless pit on the way
back to the house. That's strange.
Right. The steps open up and she's gone?
Yeah. And she didn't, it wasn't a runaway thing
because she wouldn't have left her brother there.
She also didn't take any clothes or money or makeup
or anything that.
All of her shit there.
All of her shit there.
This would be the modern day equivalent
of having her phone sitting on her dresser.
You know what I mean?
She wasn't expected to be gone.
She even left her driver's license behind
so she didn't even have ID.
Yeah, that's ridiculous.
And she was getting along well with her parents
and her siblings.
She hadn't just been, you know, had a,
it wasn't like talking to guys, there's no internet.
So I mean.
Falling out of some sort.
Yeah, none of that ever happened.
She's doing well in school.
Doesn't make any sense, so no one,
she even did all her homework that night.
So they're like, okay. Really?
You're gonna run away that night,
you're not gonna do your homework first. I'm going to piss in a way that time.
You're going to burn those books before you leave and go, ha ha ha. So they offered a reward.
Now, John Weber here, he helps John Ray Weber helps out, distributes flyers,
offers suggestions to maybe what happened. He said that, you know, also there's guys that I
think that look at Carla a little too
long.
You might want to look at this guy.
Oh.
You might want to look at this guy.
Then he told the family one day after a couple weeks and it's still everybody looking for
her and rewards and flyers are up.
He says, quote, there's no sense worrying about her.
She's probably dead.
Why would you say such a thing?
Even if you thought that, you don't say that to the family to your in-laws
You're just asking for a really uncomfortable Thanksgiving. I think there that's awful
We haven't found even a dead body, but it's so new. She hasn't been gone that long. No, it's fucking weird
She's probably dead. But I mean he no one looks at him as a suspect or anything like that
They questioned him at first obviously, but he just said I don't know. it's my sister-in-law. That sucks, she's gone. But Emily, later
on, she'll say this years later in reflection, she said, quote, Carla and I looked very similar.
And as soon as I saw her picture in the paper, I knew that he had something to do with it.
I just felt it was sick of me to think that way. I felt guilty for even thinking those thoughts. So that was November 12th, 1986. Mind you. Okay. November 12th, 1987
comes along year to the day. Shelley Hansen, a young girl here. She's not a child here. She's pregnant and you know, in her early 20s. She, I guess,
has been having trouble the last year and she just disappears.
Oh, she's yeah, she's pregnant. She was happy about it. She was picking out baby names and
all that kind of thing. She was excited. Her father had promised her or the father of the
child had already said that he would give her child support and all that sort of thing. She was excited. Her father had promised her or the father of the child had already said
that he would give her child support and all that sort of thing. And so she, she apparently,
they don't know who the father was of the baby. She never told anybody because the father said,
I'll give you money and I'll give you child support if you keep my name out of this,
keep it secret. I don't want anybody to know.
So she never told anybody this. And then she disappeared while she was pregnant. And she
had like an ultrasound image and everything. She was all about it. She took the sonogram
to work and showed her friends and everything. So she disappears. So the police, I guess,
they look through her apartment and they find
all of her personal possessions that are there
that are of any value, they tell her family to take
from her apartment so it doesn't get pillaged, obviously,
by just somebody breaking in.
So her brother Ron takes all of her stuff
and then two days later, her brother's house burns down and all of her
shit is burned with it.
All of Shelly's shit?
All of her shit and his whole house is burned down.
They said that the blaze was possibly caused by an overheated wood burning stove.
Maybe.
They don't know.
So this is pretty fucking hot.
So during this whole time, Shelly had seen her brother and her sister-in-law all the
time.
She was described as very close to her brother.
They said though, except for the family, Shelly more or less stayed to herself.
She wasn't anyone she was really close to.
In Phillips, they said she was quiet and easygoing.
They were looking for her.
I mean, they did a big investigation and they just couldn't figure out what the hell happened
to her.
Nobody.
So they had a picture of her basically that's saying she's energetic.
She had two jobs in Phillips, one at the IGA store and one at a marketing firm called mark whip. Oh
What's going on with the manufacturing not marketing? Yeah manufacturing they make them a Dixie cut machines, right? Yeah
She never curtain makers not a big social life, even though she's good-looking and kind and shit
She had a lot of like knickknacks and shit like
that is what she collected. Nothing, nothing big here. Her mother said that she was very
excited to have a baby. She didn't care if the father was there or not. She said she
wanted to raise the baby by herself and she wanted the baby and was happy about it. Yeah.
So that's, that's very interesting. She was 23 at the time, and as far as anyone knew,
they don't know what the hell happened to her.
She just disappeared, but her car was located,
but it gave no clues as to what happened to her.
No blood, no signs of a struggle.
Nothing.
A $10,000 reward is offered,
but no one ever comes forward with any information.
10 grand in the 80s is a lot of money still.
And so that's one day, one year apart
on the exact same day, November 12th,
two young women here disappear.
Okay, so that's weird at that point.
Neither of them have been found either.
And people now go, oh, there's a serial killer in town.
Okay.
Gotta be.
Gotta be, and it's not a drifter because it's a year apart.
So this dude lives here.
This is fucked up.
Now, there's only like 1,000 people here at the time.
So you think you could figure it out.
But apparently not.
Yeah.
So the Emily and John in January of 1988,
this is two months after Shelley disappears,
they decide to give it another shot.
But they separate again by May.
This is not going well, yeah.
They're good for about three months together
and that's all they can tolerate.
Yeah, that's it.
She, Emily told him that she was ready to start her life
over again and they should end their marriage and you know,
she's like 20, 21 at this point. So I'm gonna start over
is fine. You're 21. You got plenty of time. I just started so. You don't have any kids?
Great. Dodged a bullet? Fucking move on because then you'd be tied to the psychopath for the
rest of your fucking life. So he moved in with his parents, moved back into them, into
their house and he was convinced that Emily is cheating
on him and has another relationship, and that's why she wants to end it.
So he files divorce papers in January of 1988, but just weeks before that, they had agreed
to get back together, and then they broke up again in May.
So that's how it happened.
And then when they got back together again, though, he said that he was going to seek
the help of a marriage counselor and a Minneapolis urologist who specializes in dick problems
that he has.
So he's going to do it.
The doctor, the old Dick Doc, Doc Dick, Doc Dick diagnosed him with Doc Dick diagnosed a douche with poor circulation and he prescribed papavirine, which is a powerful
medication that widens blood vessels and allows more blood to flow into them.
Before they had sex, before a sexual encounter, John would have to inject the base of his
penis with the medication. This isn't a pill. Did you think this was a pill or a cream? He has
to inject the base of his penis with medicine before he has sex which would make me not
want to fuck anymore once I just injected something into my cock. I'm on the DL for the day at that point right?
There was a doctor that had to do that.
Disabled dick list.
Yeah.
There was a doctor that had to do that to get an erection, and he was doing it in the
... I forget which... It was a scandal somewhere where he was like, was it that one that daddy
had?
That pregnant all those women?
Yeah, I think it's him.
Oh, with the... Oh, when he would... The guy who would... It was sperm bank. Artificial insemination guy? Yeah, I think it's him. Oh, with the, oh, when he would, the guy who would, it was a sperm bank.
Artificial insemination guy, yeah.
And he was giving them his.
Where he has like 200 kids.
That's possible, yeah.
How would he make that much jizz otherwise?
The guy was a machine.
How do you get it hard enough to,
that frequently, good lord.
He was a factory, this guy.
This was painful, but it would work for a while,
and John made him feel better about himself. Now he could bang his wife. So he
was jacked. Needle sting. He would drink a lot still. He wasn't violent though. He wasn't
a nasty drunk. That's when it's so strange. He'd get drunk and be less nasty than he was
when he was sober. He would lighten him up a little bit. He would just kind of withdraw
and kind of be pissy.
That's what he would do.
He's going to sit by himself and be quiet.
He roughed Emily up a couple of times, but nothing severe.
No hospital visits or anything like that.
He pushed her head against the bathtub at one point, and another time he wouldn't let
her leave the house or use the phone.
That's kidnapping.
That's what I mean.
These are definitely crimes, but it's nothing that she medically needed to get help for.
It's not black eyes and blood.
No.
So 1988, September of 1988, Labor Day weekend here coming up and everybody's doing well.
They're together.
He's injecting his cock.
They're having sex.
He's not drinking quite as much.
They were talking about building a home on an 80 acre plot of land that his parents owned.
Awesome.
We're gonna build a home there.
And before the holiday weekend ends, that's he's going to tell her that, yeah, let's go
look at the plot of land.
Okay.
But September 4th, 1988.
Let's go to here.
There's a police.
Police get a call at the police station from a guy identifying himself as
John Weber.
How you doing?
John Weber here.
He said he's calling a report that his wife, Emily, had been kidnapped and beaten up on
Saturday night, which is the night before, while walking past the normal building in
downtown Phillips.
Very normal for this to happen there. Kidnappings and beatings. A three story building that was a training center for school teachers at one
time but now isn't anymore. He tells the cop that Emily's abductors took her to a secluded
area in the woods, beat her and left her naked. She walked home naked, bruised and battered and got home in the middle of the night and told this tale.
He told the cop that he cleaned up his wife's wounds in the bathtub, then called his mother-in-law who came to the house and drove her to the hospital.
So, you know, Emily was in intensive care in critical condition. Oh, God. I'm calling from the hospital right now. We had to take her here.
So this cop said, could you please come by the police station to fill out a report when
you come back to Phillips later in the evening?
Stop by.
I suppose, yeah.
Yeah.
So then he told the police chief this is what happened and the police chief came to the
station because he wanted to hear about this because this is a, this would be a big deal,
an abduction beating, especially when two girls have disappeared.
It's certainly a big deal but not big enough for us to come to the hospital to get no no
no stop by and grab a report. Well this is 30 miles away in another jurisdiction in town
and shit so they have to wait for him to come back I think is part of the convenience.
Jurisdiction is part of it but then later on jurisdiction goes out the window and one
of the cops actually said I decided I didn't give a damn about jurisdiction.
So I'm like, OK, that doesn't seem good.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, come on, bro.
Like, what are you talking about?
I decided, you know what?
Damn it.
I'm going to chase them Duke boys into the next county.
I don't care.
So I'm gonna get this Reno Reno convict over there in sparks today.
It's going to happen.
So Chief Moore is on the case and the chief places a call to another chief and asks that
one of their officers be sent to the hospital to interview and photograph Emily at the hospital.
Let's do that.
So then he headed for the location where John had said the abduction took place
Yeah, so he looked around and he was looking for anything a shoe
Some gum wrapper something some blood some hair and something that would say people were here and
Nothing couldn't find anything not a damn thing
So he drove over to their house John and Emily Emily's house, and knocked on neighbors' doors.
You see anything?
Anybody pull up snarling in a giant hearse and pull a chick into it?
No, nothing happened there.
John comes to the police station at 930.
They said he was very distraught and nervous.
And the chief said he'd seen him around town but never talked to him or anything like that.
He comes in, sits John in an interview room, and John's repeating over and over what he
said on the phone.
He just keeps saying that.
They abducted her, they took her here.
He's like a tape recording over and over and over again.
He said, we were at home on Friday night watching TV at about 10.30.
She said she was going to walk downtown for a bite to eat, which is odd.
He said she was gone for about an hour when he said he was going to bed and then he woke
up at 7.30 the next morning.
So at that point the cop starts reading him his rights.
He says that and John says, why are you reading me my rights?
Are you accusing me?
And the cop said no.
And he said then why are you reading me my rights?
And he said, standard operating procedure,
gotta do it with everybody, and they do.
Yeah, so he does, he signs the form,
and then he says, when I woke up,
Emily was on top of the covers in the nude on her side.
She was covered with dirt and leaves and twigs.
How the fuck would twigs stick on
to her walking two miles home? Still
going to have twigs on her?
She got into bed and-
Not into, onto.
Yeah.
Onto, just flopped down on it. So he said there were pieces of duct tape in her hair
and cuts all over her, her breasts and other places. She's got deep like cuts under her
breasts and things like that.
She fucking slither there?
No, cuts like slices of a knife.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Did she slither home?
Like what are you talking about?
How would she get those cuts?
I don't know.
I don't know how she would get them that deep
unless she was slivering over a pile of knives
because it's a huge machete.
Some glass.
A huge machete pile here.
I had to crawl through the machete factory to get here.
It's very difficult.
So tired. Yeah. He said they were all over and her face was bruised and swollen. Her
eyes were swollen shut. The cop told him to slow down because he was rambling, gave him
a cigarette and said, let's take it from the top. John, what did Emily tell you happen?
And he said that Emily told him that she was walking downtown near the normal building
when she heard a car approach
She heard it come to a screeching stop the doors open two men grabbed her from behind
They put duct tape on her mouth and eyes and shoved her into the backseat
So he said that you know all the time Emily was in the car
they held a knife pressed to her throat she could feel it and
They drove her to a secluded spot where they tore
all of her clothes off, beat and tortured her.
Then when they were done, they pushed her out of the car and left her on the side of
the road naked.
And she somehow managed to stumble to her feet and find her way home naked through the
darkness.
So he said, I found her in the morning, woke up about 730, helped her to the bathtub, washed
her off. He said he cut away the duct tape out of her hair.30, helped her to the bathtub, washed her off.
He said he cut away the duct tape out of her hair with scissors, helped her back into bed
and then called his mother-in-law.
Yeah, so he said, you know, we were just real concerned about her.
That horrific scene is what happened and then she went home without calling anybody?
Yep, just stumbled home.
She's, I gotta get home.
Did knock on the nearest door, say help, help, ambulance.
Her eyes are swollen shut.
No.
So she found her way home.
Yeah.
So the chief is listening to this going,
I'm not buying any of this.
Yeah, I don't like how this is going here.
He said, quote, right off the bat I smelled a rat.
He said, for one thing he was way too nervous as he told the tale. He would be angry not nervous
Yeah, there's no reason nervous with him. He'd be saying this is what happened. Can you let's go out there and find these motherfuckers
He'd be mad or he'd be my wife or he'd be more down like this is sad, but not nervous
There's no reason for him to be nervous over there. Yeah, embarrassed and humbled that he wasn't there to defend her, anything.
Yeah, and he said, in this tiny, tiny town, how the fuck could a woman be snatched off
the street with screeching brakes and have nobody see or hear anything?
Yeah.
You know, he said also she's bruised and battered. How the hell is she going to stumble naked
through town for miles without not one person, even in the middle
of the night.
Nobody, not a bread truck, not nothing.
Not one person fucking saw an injured, bleeding, naked woman wandering around.
That draws attention.
An attractive 20-year-old blonde woman, naked and injured, walking down the street is going
to draw quite a bit of attention.
Eyes swollen shut. Eyes swollen shut.
Eyes swollen shut.
He said, quote, there are always people out,
especially on a holiday weekend in early September.
Right, and it's the last one.
Yeah, it's so weird.
Yeah, it's gonna be snowing a week and a half there,
probably, and then it's gonna be winter forever.
Yeah, everybody's outside.
Everybody's there.
He said, John also never asked any questions
about how is Emily doing while he was at the station
for hours.
Nothing about that.
He seemed more concerned about how the chief planned
to go about tracking down who did this.
What are you gonna do to find, not you need to,
well what do you do, like how do you do it?
Who are you looking at?
Yeah, how am I gonna get away, I mean, so you you do? Like, how do you do it? Who are you looking at? I mean, yeah. Yeah. How's it? How am I going to get away? I mean, what? So you're going to catch them, right?
He said that John never called the authorities or seek sought medical help in the nearly 24 hours
since the abduction either, which is interesting. He said, I wanted to, but Emily wouldn't let me.
She said she didn't want anyone to see her in that condition. The guy was like, no.
And he said, this guy said,
even if your wife didn't want that,
if you thought she was in need of medical attention,
you'd call the ambulance.
You'd figure it out.
You'd get her there probably.
So when the interview ended,
they asked him, John, if it would be,
you mind if we look through your house?
And he said, you know, there might be fingerprints
on the tape that you cut out.
So we want to get that here.
And John said, oh yeah, sure, yeah, no problem.
Yeah, go ahead, you can go get that tape.
So at the house, they go and they get a bunch of pieces
of duct tape that they found in a waste basket
in the bathroom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
From their water bed, he took the top and bottom sheets
which had twigs and clumps of mud and leaves. Right. Also took a bunch of swabs from around
the drain of the bathtub for a small tiny tiny town police chief. This guy knows how to
fucking do a homicide. You know how to do a crime scene in the 80s especially. This is
going everywhere. He read whatever book they wrote on that that he read it and is paying attention to it whoever came to give
them a speech recently he took the propaganda dead serious dead fucking
serious so so based on all of this this everything's adding up there's the duck
tape this is what you said happened twigs and leaves and mud okay so then
Emily tells the same story to a Park Falls cop who interviewed her and photographs her in the hospital.
But the chief said, I kinda wanna hear it
from Emily herself, I'd like to hear it here.
But Emily's in critical condition.
She had been beaten, stabbed, cut and cut.
Basically there's not an inch of her
that doesn't have a fucking bruise,
a stab or a slice on her.
She's covered in shit, including her vagina and everything.
It's not good.
She couldn't see.
Her eyes are swollen shut.
Her lips are split and puffy.
She has internal injuries.
She's got broken ribs.
She's in horrible, horrible pain.
The doctor said, that's it.
You take pictures and that was it, but no one else is talking to her about,
no more fucking questioning.
Not now, at least she's gotta improve.
Let me do my doctoring and get her healthy,
and then you can talk to her.
So now he looks at her, he thought, looking at her,
that she must've weighed 200 pounds,
but she goes about a buck 10.
But she was so swollen.
That he thought she weighed like 200 pounds.
Wow.
So when he finally gets to talk to her, he introduces himself and he said, do you think
you're strong enough to tell me what happened to you? And he tapes it and she tells not
as detailed a story as John told, but same sort of thing. Got grabbed, got thrown in,
beaten, tortured, you know, sexually assaulted, the whole deal.
He said, okay, that's okay.
He said he didn't believe her though, at all.
And he said that he also realized that with her eyes shut, she didn't even know who else
was in the room.
So the next time, he went away for a little while, came back and he told her that it's
just me and a nurse here by the way.
He said, John's in the waiting room and don't worry about it.
No one will hurt you.
Everything's fine.
Then he asked Emily, do you believe in God?
And she said yes.
And he said, okay.
He said, and he asked her to pray with him.
And they did.
And she said that he prayed that, dear Lord, please,
please protect this woman and give her the strength to tell the truth.
So he led the prayer and said that to her with, yes, said that with her. Yes.
He said, so give her the strength to tell the truth.
And then as soon as he said amen, she started saying what really happened to
him. Yeah. Next three hours,
she spills the fucking beans here and tells her, because that's
a harrowing tale that didn't happen at all.
She said her and John had a fight the night before all this happened.
John was horny and wanted to have sex, but she didn't want to.
So she told him tomorrow night, I promise, just not, I don't feel like it tonight.
So she said that he went off to fucking be know, fucking be pissy and have some beer and all
that kind of thing and just, you know, be a fucking grumpy shit.
So then he, I guess, asked her if she'd like to go for a ride with him out to his parents'
80 acre spread.
He's out and he calls her, okay, and says, come out to the here.
Let's take a look at where we're going to build our house.
He said, I have a surprise for you. It's about us moving up there. I'll pick you up in an hour
An hour later. He drove up there. He's got a yellow two-door Oldsmobile Cutlass
1970 which very cool if done up is a very cool car
Yellow not so good yellow. Yeah, I mean now though. It'd be pretty fucking cool
If the chrome pop to the yellow could work yellow is pretty bad
No, it's okay on a classic car. I'm okay on a muscle car. I'm good on a muscle car with bright colors like that
That's pretty cool. It's better than gray every fucking car is great. Yeah, I just like see another white car gray car
I can't do it anymore. I like black. Oh, that's all my cars are black. I am a black car guy
But yeah, none of my cars are black. I mean, I'm a black car guy, but. I love black. Yeah, none of your cars are black.
No.
All white, everything's white.
Oh yeah, you have white, you have all white.
Yeah, shit, sorry.
All white.
But they all got black trim all over them.
That'll do it.
Yeah.
You do live in Arizona too.
So he stops at a store, before they get,
he picks her up, stops at a store, grabs a spiral notebook at a store.
That's not good.
Along the way she's like, hey, what's up with this?
Give me a hint.
And he won't tell her shit.
He said, I don't want to spoil the surprise.
So they're driving, driving.
They drive past the airport and all this type of shit.
They go past his old job at the Mark Quip plant
and everything.
Then they go to the Weber property
and it's a flat property, nothing to look at,ip plant and everything. Then they go to the Weber property and it's
a flat property, nothing to look at, just trees and shit. They also get to Rock Creek
Road and he turns left onto a dirt driveway. This is the property. So he comes to a stop
here, they get out and he said, don't peek, you'll spoil it.
Oh boy.
She was excited and she had her eyes closed
and he said, I'll be right back.
You stay here and keep your eyes closed.
He was gone for about 15 minutes
and then he comes back to pick her up.
15 minutes?
He dropped her off and said, stand here
and just don't look.
Keep your eyes closed.
So then he gets back, 15 minutes later, she jumps in.
They drive off, they go down the driveway
for about a half mile and they turn into the woods.
He's driving a 70 Oldsmobile Cutlass
through the fucking, through a trail in the woods,
which is strange.
Drives it for a while, all through the woods,
and she figured, oh, we're going to the house
where we're gonna knock down some trees
and build our dream house.
This is where it is.
So she saw a tape in the tape player
and while they're driving she pushed the tape in. She said that John had mentioned a tape to her
off and on and she thought that maybe that this had something to do with the surprise.
So she said when's when am I going to find out the surprise? And she pushed the tape in.
He immediately shuts the tape off and pops it back out again.
And tells her that you can't listen to it right now.
Can't do it.
So she was like, oh, okay.
She thought this was like some big elaborate, you know, surprise.
So fuck man, this is very weird.
At this point, they stop in the woods and he says, you know,
they're sitting there and he says, close your eyes. And she did.
And she heard him like, you know, moving stuff around in the back seat.
She's like, Oh, may as probably got a dozen roses back there. The next thing,
she feels a knife against her throat.
She said, is this going to hurt?
Which is a very calm thing to ask at that point Yeah, she opened her eyes and it's a big hunt
He's got his big hunting knife against the side of her neck. Yeah, and she was like what the fuck is going on and he was like
Fucking in a rage on fire angry. Yeah. Yeah different guy
She said that you could see the neck his veins and his neck pulsing with the fucking each heartbeat and shit and
He's very mad. He said are you cheating on me? You've been cheating on me, and she said no of course not
You don't have any reason to be jealous blah blah blah. You know he said he didn't believe her
And he said I brought you into the woods so you could watch me blow my head off
That's why I brought you here
Okay, I've been like all right. That's better I brought you here. Okay. I've been like,
all right, that's better than the knife against my neck. I'll take it. So my options are you
cut my throat or you shoot yourself. Well, I mean, it's a tough decision, but yeah. Oh,
well, he then said he told her to open up the spiral notebook and he handed her a clipboard
that had two letters. He wanted her to copy. he handed her a clipboard that had two letters
he wanted her to copy.
He's got a clipboard with fucking letters
and he's got a pen.
And he wanted to write.
One was to him and the other was to her parents.
Then he punched her real hard in the mouth
and said quote, I'll cut your tits off
if you don't do what I tell you.
Oh my God.
With a knife to her throat, large fucking crocodile
dundee knife.
So she did what she was told.
She wrote.
She was like, oh my God, this is fucking crazy.
The letter to her parents was an apology
for leaving without saying goodbye
and for not being able to tell them where she'd gone
or when she'd be coming back.
That's a bad letter to be writing.
Oh yeah, when you're in the woods
with a knife against your throat, yeah.
The letter to John stated that she was very sorry,
but she couldn't stay married to him anymore,
and that she was the cause of all the problems
in their marriage, and that she hoped
that he'd be able to find someone
who would treat him better than she did.
An actual dear John.
Yep, that's it.
And added also that her parents probably wish she had disappeared instead of Carla as well
And a PS there said hey John
Please tell our friends that you were right about me all along
Make sure you tell all of our friends that you were the good one and I sucked it which everyone would do so
She finished copying the letters then he had her sign two birthday cards, one to him
and one to her father.
Then he gave her the envelopes to address as well.
He told Emily to write only her name in the space for the return address and he had her
sign a blank check drawn from their joint account and said to make it out to cash for
$250.
She does all that.
Then he says, I'm going to get rid of you just like I got rid of Carla.
Oh, what?
That's what he tells her.
She was like, what the fuck?
So obviously that stops her cold.
He says, Oh, you didn't know I killed Carla, did you? And then smiles at her.
Oh my God. This is Europe. This is like, holy fuck, I have messed up. I'm in the car with
a serial killer. Now this is terrifying. This is how women felt when they were in the car
with Ted Bundy. And he was like, end of the road. This is, you know, takes the cast off.
Oh shit. He just took the cast off. She was thinking about what the fuck to do.
He got out of the car, walked around,
and yanks the door open, like Silvio dragging Adriana
out in the woods, basically.
So she didn't want to get out,
so he yanked her out by the hair.
He told her strip, and she took her clothes off and
Wow, she you know pulls off all of her clothes. It's it's raining at this point now, by the way
She stands totally naked. He's smoking a cigarette at this point. She had a bra and panties on that's it at this point
Well as he's taking a drag of a cigarette, she decides to make a run for it.
Oh boy.
She takes off, but John's running after her,
and he's like a 25 year old guy who's like six foot six,
and she doesn't even have shoes on in the woods.
Right.
Not a good.
You're not gonna get far.
Not very good.
It's not even, yeah.
So he said, you better get back here,
or I'll kill you for sure.
She got about 100 feet away, and then she realized that she wasn't going to be able
to get away any farther.
So she stopped and he caught up to her and quote grabbed her by the crotch and dragged
her back to the car.
Oh boy.
He reached.
Okay.
This is going to get bad now.
If you just to get everybody a little warning ahead of time to going to buckle up for this
shit. If you just so just to get everybody a little warning ahead of time to gonna buckle up for this shit
He reached into the back seat and pulled out a roll of duct tape and wrapped it around her head
So it covered her eyes and mouth. Yeah, then he pulled her arms behind her back and taped her wrists together
And then with his hunting knife, he cut off her bra and panties at that point. That's what he's gonna do
So she can't hear or move or anything
He That's what he's gonna do. So she can't hear or move or anything. He then shoves her to the ground.
She fell down.
He jumps on top of her and starts just slashing away
at underneath her breasts.
That's what she's doing there.
Oh, godly.
He's, yeah.
He's just cutting her off.
A woods mastectomy he's doing at this point.
He's trying to do, basically.
She said she could feel her skin coming apart.
Wow.
Then he took an inch and a half safety pin and poked it through her left breast and twisted
it several times before snapping it shut.
What?
Ow!
Yeah.
Inside and outside.
Why?
Yeah.
Because he's fucking sick.
This is the sick shit he's been thinking about.
Jesus.
He picked up the knife again and just started slashing away
at her general torso, just cutting her,
slashing her back and forth.
At one point he took the, put the knife down
and just started beating her with his fists.
Then he got tired of beating her topside
and turned her over and put her on her stomach
and began slashing away with the hunting knife on her back.
Yeah, he had also brought along a wheelbarrow handle from his job.
And he assaults her sexually with it as far as he could get it into her.
Oh dear Lord.
And twists it and makes it very painful.
And then he does the same thing to back door there.
So then he says, now are you in the mood?
Oh my god.
He's angry that she wasn't in the mood.
Yeah.
Dude, jerk it and get back to it tomorrow.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
He's disgusting.
He's a sick fuck, obviously.
So she remained conscious
through all this somehow. Yeah. Which is insane. She said that she wanted to, she was trying to
stay alive is what she was doing here. So she got back to her feet and she tried to get the duct tape
that was around her hands to come loose and she did. And then she ripped it off of her mouth
and then she started fighting. So she's trying to fight back.
She's trying to gouge his eyes out but he'd knock her down to the ground every time because
he's six foot six and she's five foot four, 110 pounds so it's not working out very well.
Then he would stomp and kick her with a steel toed boots that he was wearing as well.
Then he bent down and picked up a shovel.
She stood back up and he smashed her over the head with the shovel. The metal end, the
shovel part, not the handle. She said at least 20 times. She would get back up and he would
fucking smash her again and knock her back down. It was just like he would wait for her
to get up and then he would knock her back down with it again.
He yelled, you're gonna be a tough one to kill,
aren't you?
Yeah.
And she said, I'm not gonna let you kill me,
I'm not gonna die.
That's what she said.
At some point she passed out, he knocked her unconscious,
which it's amazing that she's been conscious
this whole time.
Right.
It's incredible, honestly.
And honestly, horrifying.
I'd much rather be unconscious at some point here. So at some point she comes to looks around, she's still
in the woods. Yeah. And she's got John's jacket on now over her and he's cradling her in his
arms. Like he feels bad. She said John was talking in a nice voice like he really felt bad.
Then she heard another voice, she said, but there's no one else there but the two of them.
It was a completely different voice.
She said it was mean and lower and it kept saying, don't let her live.
Don't let her live.
Oh, he was like, I love Emily and I want her to be okay.
Don't let her live. don't let her live.
No, but she's good, I don't want her.
He's arguing with himself about killing her.
Holy.
While cradling her in his arms.
Imagine how terrifying.
This is the scariest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life.
This is insanity.
This is a horror movie.
It's just fucking worse.
So he refers, she said, who else is here?
And he said, Nottis.
He said, Nottis, I've got to let her live.
I can't kill her.
He was like saying that, and he was saying,
don't let her live in a lower voice.
She said the two were going back and forth arguing
about the two voices about killing her.
She said, it was like I wasn't even there.
At one point, the argument became so heated that
John was smashing his fists into the ground arguing with himself. Um, but she, as soon as the sun
started coming up, he helped her up to her feet and back to the car. Yeah. Yeah. So they drove back
to Phillips and um and there they are.
Now he was taken care of.
We helped her out of the car, into the house,
filled the bathtub with warm water
and gently, gently washed and bandaged her wounds,
put her to bed.
She slept for the next 10 hours,
which she's got a severe concussion, I'm sure.
This is awful.
Great place to be.
She shouldn't go to sleep after that
I would say not no probably you should go to the hospital after that and don't wait
out when she woke up he was on the edge of the bed and saying this is a story you got
to tell by the way because you're gonna have to probably go to the hospital and you're
gonna tell this story and told her the story about you were abducted, this is what happened,
two guys in town, blah, blah, blah.
So the cops now, after the chief hears this story
from Emily, imagine sitting there listening to the story.
He's just like, oh, oh, oh my God, oh Jesus, oh Jesus.
You'd wanna stop her and just go make an arrest
before she's done because this is too much already.
You've already told me about one crime, that's enough. As soon as you got to the wheelbarrow handle, you go, you know what, I'm going to go arrest him. We'll take it. It's fine. I'll give
you a patent paper. You write the rest down. We'll talk about this later. Yeah. This is crazy. So
they said he chief leaves and thank you for the statement goes out to the waiting room and talks
to the other cop and said, I'm going to arrest this guy here. And if he takes off, I need you to block the exit
and tackle his ass. So he goes up to John and he says, fucking turn around, cuffs him.
John didn't wouldn't do it at first, but then he looked at the doorway and saw there was other
cops there. And he was like, Oh, this is more than one cop. And he just does it. He turns around, does his thing, they cuff him,
they walk him out, he said, quote,
I don't know what's going on,
but they've arrested me for Emily.
This is what he yells to his in-laws,
Emily's parents, as they're taking him out of there.
They're like, what the fuck?
And the father, Emily's father, blocks the cop's path
and says, what the fuck are you doing?
Why are you taking my son-in-law away?
This is ridiculous. And he was like, okay, okay now do I want to tell the cut the dad what the fucking daughter just told me here
Let's not do this right here. He said listen can't talk about it right now. Don't worry about it police stuff
I'll get to you later. Okay. There you go. So he locks John in the police car now
They asked about the doctor. what exactly is wrong with Emily,
what are her diagnoses. He said quote, she had so many diagnoses I'm not sure what we
settled on for a principal diagnosis. That's what the doctor said.
There's a lot. So much I don't even know what is the A.
Which one do you want? The A game here. Yeah. What section of the body
would you like to talk about because Because it's all fucked up.
We're not sure which one's most severe. How's that?
Multiple concussions and facial swelling under the skin.
Eyes swollen shut, swelling and blood clots in her lower abdomen and labia.
Blood clots.
Yeah.
Lacerations of the leg, puncture wounds of the buttocks, cuts and abrasions in the vaginal area, swelling caused by internal bleeding.
Also contusions to her liver, pancreas, which were causing severe pain, abrasions to the
mucous membrane lining of her vagina caused, he said, by forceful rubbing against with
something that wasn't smooth.
They bring John to the police station.
They put him in a little cell.
He immediately lays down, crawls up, and falls asleep.
Which is the number one, you're guilty fucking thing.
That's the, they put him in there and then watched him
and went, well, he's sleepy, that's, he's guilty as fuck.
Okay, moving on.
So he calls John's father, the chief does,
and says, his father tells, he tells the father
what's going on, and he says, can we search your property?
And the father says, sure, come on out.
So they do that.
They come on out to the place.
This is the county sheriff, the state police, the little town, everybody is out there.
They all go out there.
They find freshly made tire tracks that lead right to the spot where John had beaten Emily
with the shovel.
They even found the shovel lying next to a freshly dug hole.
They they measured at 28 inches deep by 34 inches by 26 inches.
They said it seemed too small for the body of an adult woman, but it was probably a work in progress.
That's her that's her grave.
Another location they found an empty M.G.D. beer can, which M.G.D. is gross, it'll make
you do weird shit I guess. A partially used roll of silver duct tape, Salem light cigarette
butts, Salem lights gross, a blue baseball cap, a flashlight and a hacksaw. And then
a few feet away they found more duct tape and a wooden wheelbarrow handle, which
was bloodstained.
Those things are square, James.
Yes.
So fucked up.
That's horrifying.
Good lord.
Fucking terrifying.
So they drew a map of the locations where she was attacked and, you know, they draw it
all out for the police report here. So then a team of investigators come together to search his car which is at the hospital
parking lot.
Right.
Okay it's the 70 Cutlass.
They ordered it and pounded when he got arrested so a tow truck brings it in from there to
the sheriff's garage.
They get ready to examine it and they really really wanna go over it with a fine tooth comb
because they know it's gonna have stuff here.
So they photograph it all over,
they notice the door on the handle of the passenger side
looks like it has blood on it.
That's a good start.
They photograph that, they remove the door,
they bag and mark it,
they take the car apart piece by piece.
That's how careful they're doing it.
They're not just on their knees in the front seat going around the back seat. They're taking the seats out
and fucking looking at it like that. So in the glove compartment, they find a partially
used roll of duct tape, similar to the one found at the grave site and similar to the
tape removed from the wastebasket of their house. They also found a hunting knife. That's
the knife they believed he used to slash her all up. They look under the cutlass, they noticed that mud flaps were hanging over three of
the four tires, only the left front tire was missing the flap and the flap was found on
the Weber property that matched the three that were on the car back there.
So you don't drive a cutlass in the woods.
Right, you'll lose your mud flaps.
You'll lose a flap in there.
They also scrape bits of grass and soil from the undercarriage and everything and they
really went over this like a really good crime scene.
Then they pop the trunk.
Oh boy.
And that is, I like to call this the trunk of darkness.
This is some weird shit.
Tons of beer cans, first of all empty beer cans and that kind of thing.
The clothes that Emily was wearing when he forced her
to strip, including her sliced off and bloodstained bra and panties. They found the clipboard that
held the originals of the messages that he had her copy as well, as well as the birthday cards
and the envelopes. They also found a couple of weird lists that he made, to-do lists and need to buy lists.
Among the entries for PH1, which they later on
found out from him meant phase one,
were quote, bondage for legs, saw, duct tape, oil for ass.
What?
Oil for ass.
It's gonna oil it up.
Yeah, like it's a fucking lawn mower.
Yeah.
Wow.
Needles, pins, and checkbook.
He had all in a list of things.
Another page contained notations for phase two.
And it said, take shot in dick just before PH2, 3CC.
So take a sexual dick shot.
Quote, burial spot, compost heap? Question mark. Maybe
I'll put someone there. Make sure compost heap is same as before execution. Okay. Then
they find, this isn't the weirdest shit they find in there. They find a black bag in there
also. Inside they found the blue spiral notebook which she copied
messages on that were written out. Also were a bag of stick pins, three Dutch Masters cigars
and two more wheelbarrow handles, one of which looked like a notch was carved into its handle.
Oh, like it was used.
Yes. They also found a green duffel bag that contained torn bras of various sizes, soiled
men's and women's underwear, a vibrator, and a rabbit stuffed animal with a hole cut
out of its crotch.
He is fucking the rabbit?
He's fucking a stuffed rabbit.
What the fuck?
All sorts.
I mean, imagine he's got all this stuff around him.
He's right in phase one and injecting things into his dick and then fucking a stuffed rabbit.
This is just a weird guy, right? And he's got a dildo. And he's got a dildo too. Yeah.
They also found more than a hundred porn mags in his trunk as well. Tons of magazines. Everything from Playboy and Penthouse to like hardcore weird fucking European bondage shit
and shit that's not even legal here and stuff.
A lot of the magazines were dog-eared and like you know marked and stuff like this is
a good one and you know he really went through them.
He's got those neon pointers.
Oh yeah.
Then they find his tapes.
Okay.
First he's got some normal tapes.
For a guy, I guess, in 86.
He's got these are the tapes.
These are on the tapes that warrant returns.
So like, you know, you can give this back to whoever.
A tape of the Best of Bread, the band.
Oh really?
Real big bread fan.
CCR Gold, so Creed Green Clearwater Revival Gold,
so he likes best ofs.
Road Songs, I don't know what that is.
Docken, he's got Docken.
He's got a Docken tape.
Yeah, Docken.
He's into Docken.
Also, Heavy Metal, music from the motion picture.
Oh, that's a great movie. Yeah, but that's a, wow. Heavy Metal, music from the motion picture. Oh, that's a great movie.
Yeah.
But that's a, wow.
Heavy Metal soundtrack in there.
He loves that movie.
Yeah.
This is like 88.
Yeah, that's a cartoon porn.
America History, American Greatest Hits, I think that's the band America, like Horse
with No Name, that band.
And then, to round out his tape collection, The Bee Gees also, which I wouldn't have, there's
not a lot of people who have docking in the Bee Gees in the same car in 1988.
So that's interesting.
Is he teasing them with staying alive?
No shit.
And then, oh wait, that's all the tapes that were laying around.
There's one tape in the taper deck.
Remember the one that Emily tried to push in?
It's still there.
It's just black though.
There's nothing on it.
Yeah. Nothing on it. So, no words or It's just black though, there's nothing on it. Nothing on it.
So, hmm.
No words or letters or a label.
No, they can't identify it.
So they have to figure out what it is
so they can inventory it.
Is it something that's returned?
So they said they thought maybe it's just music.
So they turned the ignition to the, you know,
where you can play the radio.
Don't turn the engine over.
They turn it on and push the tape in. Said 10 seconds,
nothing happens. So they were about to pop it out. Maybe it's a blank of some kind. But
then John's voice comes on. John's voice. Yes. Um, he speaks in this very weird voice
for about 50 minutes on this tape. 50 minutes. And I'm going to give you some of the highlights
here. Um, he was talking to Emily by the way on this tape
She's not there, but this is an address to Emily. Yeah
It's a monologue for her monologue for her to listen to
He says if you do exactly as I tell you when I tell you and what I tell you you will be all right
I need to explain something to you and I want you to listen closely and understand
I have a lot to tell you so sit back and relax
to you and I want you to listen closely and understand. I have a lot to tell you so sit back and relax." He said that as we were having problems in our marriage, he would seek advice
from Carla. He said, quote, the first time I talked to her, I knew right away that she
had a crush on me and I know how she felt. So I would go out and I would talk to her
and we would go for rides. Then she said that, or they
said on the tape, his voice kind of not like he doesn't go to his other personality, but
he starts getting sounding different. Then he said, I know what happened to Carla. I
know real well. And they said he drew out that it was like real well. He said, like
drew it out. He said, the same thing is not going to happen to you. You are going to live.
However,
you may be a little sore and you will definitely remember me. So I will explain what happened.
Now he's going to spill it. He said that he called car let 11pm on November 12th, 1986.
He invited her to go for a quick ride to talk about his marriage problems. She said yes.
So he said he grabbed a kit that he'd prepared a few
weeks earlier. Oh boy. He's got a kill kit. This is fucking insane. Drove his
Pontiac Sunbird out there. She was already walking down the road to meet
him. She climbed into the car and he drove out to his parents property there
again, State Road 13. When they got there, he told Carla
that he was thinking of leaving for Colorado. And he asked if she would go with him. She's
17. Literally illegal to take her. She said no. This is his quote. Quote, she said no
and that she wanted nothing more than to see me and you back together again. So I told
her I had a surprise for her and that she would need to close her eyes and
turn away.
She smiled and did as he asked because she trusted him.
When she closed her eyes, he said he reached into his kit and pulled out his 25 caliber
pistol.
He said she was still smiling when he grabbed her hair and shoved the gun into her mouth.
Oh my God. Okay, this is going to be another rough part here for a little bit.
Quote, she didn't know what to think.
I told her she should do exactly as I say or she would die.
And I told her she was going to watch me blow my head off.
That's this thing that he likes to tell people.
And she kept screaming why I told her to shut up.
And when she wouldn't, I slammed a sock into her mouth
So he said that she was feisty and she fought back and she spit the sock out and then tried to grab the gun
She tried to wrestle it away from him, but he's a lot bigger
So he pinned her to his lap and told her that he didn't want to live anymore
She said what do you want from me?
Why the fuck do you need me here?
Pull your head off then.
He said, before I blow my head off, I want to see you strip.
That's what he told her.
She said no, so he put the gun to his head
and pulled the trigger.
She screamed no, John, don't.
But he had the safety on.
He was just doing it to act like he was doing it.
She said, well, maybe I'll kill you first, then me. That's what he said then. Oh boy
She said okay fine. I'll strip if that'll make you not kill me basically
He said she started with her jacket
She had that purple jacket on and she took that
She took that and her shirt off and then her shoes and then her pants and then she asked how far
All the way is what he told her. So he watched her strip the rest off. He said quote,
she had her arms across her tits and I couldn't see them very well, but I could see her muff
and it looked like it was black, but it actually was brown and she had trimmed it up. He uses
the word muff in a non sarcastic way, not trying to refer to a guy who uses the
word muff.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's the only time a normal guy should use that word is in referring to a guy like he's
the type of guy who says, Hey, look at her muff.
Like he reached back.
The guy that uses the word muff without an insult towards somebody else.
Yeah.
Just as like normal.
Yeah. So he could. That's a good looking piece of wool there.
That's what he said.
Ugh.
So he then removed a roll of duct tape from his kit and bound her eyes and mouth in the
duct tape.
And he said about three wraps so she could not see.
Then he pushed her face first into the dashboard, yanked her wrist behind her back and bound
them with tape too.
Quote, I knew she couldn't get out of that, he said.
Then he started to torture her because that's what he wanted to do.
He pulled on her left nipple, quote, as far out as it would go and he bit it hard and
he pinched it real hard, he said.
Then he said it got much worse.
He went on. he said that,
again, this is disgusting. He said that he pushed his fingers into her vagina,
he tugged at her pubic hair and pinched her clitoris and then hit her with a plank across
her butt 30 to 40 times. Flogging. Flogged her. Then he told her, now you're going to give me a blowjob
and if I feel one tooth, I'll cut your tits off. He then said that he quote, fucked her
face for a good 10 to 15 minutes. He ordered her to lick the crack of his ass and she did.
He then told her to hold her mouth open. He said, if you hold close it even months, I'll cut your tits off.
And then I pissed in her mouth.
He said, he's just a sadistic, just horrible person, zero sex to this at all.
It's just all no humiliation.
This is, yeah, this is what he likes.
He then took the ends of two wheelbarrow handles, rolled them in snow, and forced one into her
vagina.
Quote, I fucked her with it first slow and deep and then fast.
And then he pushed another one deep into her rectum, he said.
Quote, it went in real hard and real stiff.
He then took a cigarette and burned her clitoris long and hard. Oh, Jesus.
He then took a safety pin, one of the big ones, he said, and quote, poked her ass about
20 times, then used the same pin again and stuck it through one of her nipples.
Then shoved a beer bottle into her rectum and pushed it in as far as the neck, he said.
What is the point of all this?
Oh, it gets even weirder.
Not, this is, I don't even know how you could get weirder,
but he then got one of his hypodermic needles
for his dick injections, filled it with lighter fluid,
and injected it into her left nipple, quote, all the way in.
What does that do?
I don't know how that would make him, I don't know.
I do, I don't understand any of this at all.
Like I'm-
Now it's just like-
I don't think I wanna understand this.
Now it's just sick experiments.
It's not even like, it's just to see.
He's like fucking Mengele at this point.
Yeah, yeah.
Like he's just, it's disturbing.
Just to see.
Then he pulled the tape off her eyes
and said, I want you to see this.
And with his hunting knife, he cut off her right nipple and showed it to her.
Oh boy.
He then sliced off her right breast.
He said that Carla went into spasms.
He said, I showed her her tit up close, holding it by the nipple.
And then he kicked the beer bottle quote quote, all the way up her ass.
Oh, god damn it.
Said he had to do it three or four times before it disappeared.
He said, but she was still alive.
Really, really pissing him off.
Because you've done nothing that's a that's a deadly thing.
You know, you're doing slow internal injuries to hurting somebody horribly.
He said, quote, So I stepped on her throat until she died.
That is the worst death I've ever heard of in my entire life.
That's what I mean.
We've heard a lot of serial killer stuff.
Ted Bundy wouldn't have gone this far.
He would do it afterwards.
This is, I don't, BTK, this is too far for him.
He never even, he didn't get this far in his fantasies. He might have if he had 150 years, but this is too far for him. He never even- This is so fucked up.
He didn't get this far in his fantasies.
He might have if he had 150 years, but this is like, I don't even know, man.
This is somebody who really thought about this and is, this is disgusting.
This is-
He enjoys saying it.
Yeah, then he's saying it and he's for his wife.
He said that he had dug a grave two days earlier, but he didn't bury her
No, he said instead he put this gets even weirder by the way
He put her corpse and her severed breast in the trunk of the Sunbird
and
This is while all of them including John looked all around for the for her
She drove around car in the trunk in the middle
of these search parties, driving the car
right next to cop cars.
Yeah, buddy, we'll check, let's see,
let's hope we can find her.
Jesus.
On the second day after she died,
ah, he sliced off, Jesus, a chunk of her left leg,
skinned it and froze it along with the severed breast.
Quote, that night I made some patties and I ate her leg.
Oh my God.
I don't know, man.
Is this the worst thing we've ever talked about?
I don't understand any of this.
This is fucking crazy. Um,
then he said he talked about his Jekyll and Hyde personalities and said he
could, he just couldn't stop it. He wanted to, but he couldn't. He said,
quote, I wanted to stop and I couldn't, I wanted to go home.
But he said that there's another part of me,
there's another voice that he describes as the quote,
evil part of me that planned this
murder and I couldn't stop it because the wheels were in motion.
Yeah, quote, I drove around with her in the back of the trunk for four or five days.
I got this wild idea.
Her left leg was unbeaten.
So I took out that knife and I cut off her calf, just her muscle.
And I brought it in the house and I washed it up and cleaned it and skinned it and sliced it up and froze it and that night I made
myself some patties and I ate Carla's leg.
Unreal man.
Wow.
He also says that her breast, quote, I put it in a plastic bag and brought it home and
I sliced it up.
I figured I'd like to try a woman's breast.
Then he says, quote, you know, human meat doesn't taste
that bad actually.
I was kind of surprised.
You're a sick son of a bitch, man.
Actually, it tasted kind of good.
No, it doesn't.
Unbelievable.
I don't believe you.
Then he said that he was going to do this to Emily,
if she didn't fucking, you know, if she didn't, you know,
just do whatever he wanted and all that. Or just, you know, if she didn't, you know, just do whatever he wanted
and all that, or just, you know,
if he felt like it, basically.
I don't even know what the fuck, man.
He tried a letter he wrote to her,
we'll talk about it, he writes a letter
to her parents later on, and part of it he says,
quote, what they believe happened didn't.
Because of the tape, the things they believe happened
to Carla are worse than what actually did
at the end, at the end of the tape, he said, Oh, by the way,
he then buried her after all that, the rest of her on her,
his parents' property and said, quote, now, you know, what happened to Carla?
Yeah. But he said at the same time, I'm going to make you suffer, but I won't kill you, he
says to Emily.
He says he was going to quote, make her fuck herself and fuck herself up the ass.
He said her ass quote will be sore and your cunt will be sore and your tits will be sore.
Women are nothing.
They flaunt their bodies and they think they can get anything they want by being a cock
tease.
I pay them back and I'm definitely paying you back.
There will be others, many others.
This is a dangerous motherfucker that could have a hundred bodies on him.
He said, I will cut off your tits and then start at your ankles and make another cut
just below your knee and another one by your rotten pussy.
He said he would break every toe, maybe even a few fingers and maybe I will cut off your
head.
And then the tape just ends.
Wow.
The cop sat in the car and listened to this for 50 minutes.
Can you imagine that?
No.
They're like, they know this could actually have happened.
And they know after they find out,
this did fucking happen.
This is, he's not lying, he's not exaggerating.
This is for his own records.
So.
Yeah, that's, he's then fucking set it into a microphone.
Yes.
So everybody, all every profiler, psychologist,
everybody out there with kind of a skin in this game says he is
David Parker Ray to a T. He's the toy box killer. They're the same fucking guy. You
could exchange their brains and they'd walk around and be themselves. He'd go, oh cool,
I have a dungeon to do this in now. Awesome. And he would just do it there.
I got enough money to buy a trailer. That sounds cool.
Man, I'm doing awesome. and go to bars and find chicks right he so they sit him down. They're gonna interrogate it interrogate him
Yeah, so he they have the tape. They told him we had we heard everything you did yeah, and yeah, he said
Well, yeah, I did he said I lost control with my wife
I don't exactly remember what I did to her
But I do remember taping her eyes and hands and mouth and they said do you recall?
sexually assaulting your wife with a wheelbarrow handle and he broke down in tears and nodded his head that he did and
He said he remembered that it was dark and raining hard and that they spent the night in the woods because it was so dark
They couldn't find their way back to the car So he gave her his jacket and cradled her to keep her warm.
Said he remembered he had a knife and a shovel and that he hit Emily with a shovel to kill her
quote because of the way she treated me. And then he remembered asking while he was beating her,
who's better Danny or me? And meaning the guy he thought she was cheating with, by the way, she was under oath
and everything.
She never, she wasn't with Danny.
None of that was, that was all in his mind.
This is all that shit.
Yeah.
So then when they started talking about Carla, he, John started talking about Carla, um,
or the cop did.
He said, let's talk about Carla.
John wouldn't talk anymore.
Oh, then the chief told him, I heard the tape. I know what happened to Carla. And John said, no, no, none of that
was true. I only said all that to frighten Emily. I didn't kill Carla. He said, okay.
Then they said, what about, you know, a girl named Shelley Hanson? Oh, the date, November
12th, ring a bell to you. And he said, never heard of her don't know her is that that girl that was missing I read about that
But I never met her I don't know her I don't never seen her in my life
And they went you work together you fucking asshole we knew we know you work together
Yes, it was two cubes down you idiot. Oh with a little investigation
He had been seen with her in several bars in town
in the weeks leading up to her disappearance.
He was hanging out with her.
He fucking killed that girl.
For sure. He had to.
He absolutely killed her.
And that's probably his kid.
He probably knocked her up and then killed her.
Oh, wow.
You think so?
I would think so, yeah.
Or she was knocked up by somebody else,
and he was jealous and upset by it.
Who knows?
Yeah, that's also a possibility.
So the cop then, because he doesn't want to talk, he doesn't want to,
he doesn't want to talk about it. So the cop says, Hmm, let me try this. John.
Yeah.
You know what the next words are. Do you believe in God?
You want to pray with me?
This works by the way, if you watch like the first 48
or interrogation videos, you will be shocked at how often do you believe in God and where's
your soul going to go and your grandma's going to be disappointed with shit like that and
they'll just spill it. It's fucking wild. How you're shoving things up in a woman and
doing horrible things. Then you're like, well, I don't want God to be mad at me. Like, are you fucking nuts? Does he believe in God? He, cause he
said that, do you believe in God? Because I would like to gather whatever is left of
Carla and give her a Christian burial so the good Lord can grant her some peace. You understand
what a Christian burial is, don't you? And he nodded his head that he did. Yeah. So the
cop said, would you like to take a ride with me to your parents house there so you can
point out the location of the grave? Help us out. John said no, but he said,
I'll draw you a map though. He fucking gives it up. He draws a map.
Yep, they do that. He does a map and he indicates where they could find the
grave. A hundred yards from Rock Creek
Road, not far from the barn. They get there and it is, that's where they find them. That's
where they find Carla. Yeah, they get back to the property, they start digging her up.
They had to surround the whole grave site, photograph it. They got hand tools, they have
to sift through their evidence here, forensic evidence, and it's a person's remains.
You don't want to just hack through them.
It's got to be respectful here.
So as they go through it, they uncover a purple jacket, a bra and panties, and a hypodermic
needle.
One, two, three.
They uncover the skeletal remains of her beneath about a foot and a half of soil.
A tuft of matted hair was still attached to
her skull. They said part of her left leg and foot were missing because he ate them.
He did it.
Yep. The remains were carefully collected, placed in body bags and then driven for everything,
the driven into the offices there. The odontologist that had worked on her had x-rays so they could identify her 100%.
Cadaver dogs are sent for two days around the body,
around the whole property looking for other bodies
and they don't find anything else.
They tracked down his sunbird,
which had been sold and then sold again.
It's been sold twice since he's had it.
But they have a warrant and they impound it.
Some poor guy paid $120 for this fucking car.
It's his only form of transportation.
And now they took it and impounded it for shit and he had nothing to do with.
That sucks.
I hope they gave him another shit car in return.
Here you go.
Here's the one I had.
Here's the chevette for him.
So they had it towed in and they go over it.
The trunk had hairs matched in color and texture to the hairs that were still attached to Carla's
skull and then about two weeks after this all happened, John's dad comes into the police
station with a big box full of his son's shit.
Among the items were two 25 caliber handguns, several pads and notebooks into which he had written out in painstaking
detail, crazy scenarios for kidnapping and torturing women.
Based on the writings, they concluded he's also been actively stalking, before they caught
him, a Phillips High School cheerleader, a specific one that he was going to do this
to as well.
Dude, this could have never ended. It was gone forever. Yeah. Yeah. So they're like, holy shit. So
then they start tracking all of his travels over the last, however, amount of time. They
said, when does he start being weird? 11. Since he was 11, they've been, then they start
looking for everything. Yeah. When he was in the army, they had to go over everywhere
he's been just to make sure he He was in Germany for Christ's sake.
Yeah, they were looking for unsolved cases involving dead or missing young women, but
they were never able to make any connections that would stand up in court.
Just coincidences.
Wow.
Nothing that they had evidence on.
They interviewed John's friends and coworkers and one of them said that John had expressed
a keen interest in Satanism.
He said John had told him that certain rock and roll records contain hidden messages from
the devil.
God damn it, Dockin.
God damn it.
Fucking Dockin.
I don't think it was Dockin.
I think it was Bread.
Bread will make you do crazy shit, man.
You listen to the Bee Gees long enough, you'll snap.
You'll snap.
That CCR, it all sounds the same enough that it'll it'll it'll drive
It will drive you insane and any of my streaming things no, it's all out. I can't do it
I can't fucking do CCR anymore. I'm all CCR it out. I heard all the songs and I'm done with them
There's too many and they're great. I don't ever want to write John Fogarty here an amazing artist man
But it's too much your voice is just annoying
John Fogarty, you're an amazing artist, man, but it's too much.
Your voice is just annoying.
It drives me bananas.
I love pizza.
If someone made me eat pizza three meals a day
for two years, I'd never eat fucking pizza again.
And that's the equivalent of living
in a world with CCR that exists.
You can't get away from it ever.
It's just commercials, everything.
It's just a bunch of whining.
It's just bitching.
Constantly.
And then just not saying shit.
Do looking out my back door. How about you write a fucking song while you're doing that It's just bitching. Constantly. And then just not saying shit. Nothing.
Do looking out my back door.
Well, how about you write a fucking song while you're doing that and then come back to me
and sing it for me.
That's not a song.
Close the fucking door then.
Yeah.
Get some peace and quiet so you can write a decent song.
So you can fucking write something.
That's the problem.
You're not concentrating on your work is the problem.
I wish you were a fortunate song and you saw you could
write me a fortunate song write me a fortunate song you fucking asshole yes
I've heard about the rain and I've seen the rain I've heard about it I know
everything okay shut the fuck up and write a song a different one no not that
one again not the same one yeah not the same one you've been writing for ten fucking years, guys.
Yeah, I'd rather be running through a jungle, to be honest.
The same fucking beat. Oh, no.
Oh, God. Okay.
So the newspapers go batshit.
Yeah.
They go fucking crazy, obviously.
The Weekly World News even has a big thing, which is the
Tabloid supermarket the boy born with the head of a bat. It's that one
The headline is husband digs wife's grave while she watches. That's the headline
That's the weird thing they got out of that whole thing not and then he
Sisters leg. Yeah, that's the weird one
So pretty soon he's being compared to Ed Gain, because he's the most famous guy and most
famous sick fuck in Wisconsin, until the next three years from now.
There's a reason why you've never heard of this guy, because after Dahmer got found in
91.
It's the craziest thing.
You can't top that.
Everything back to Gain was washed away. Yeah, so. There's 14 craziest thing. You can't top that. Everything back to gain was washed away.
There's 14 of these.
This guy's only got two that we know of.
We got 14 for sure.
That's a lot.
He didn't go bury the rest.
He kept it.
So Emily, maybe this inspired Dahmer though.
You never know.
Maybe.
He would have read about it.
We don't know.
It would be in Wisconsin newspapers.
Dahmer would have been doing it at this time
Yeah, he would have been involved like man this guy we are I gotta get with this guy
Thank fuck there was no internet because these two would have found each other
Can you imagine? Oh my god, forget about it discord or a fucking
exchanging recipes
Forget about it. You don't want to hear that
Have you tried tits with this spice on it?
Oh no, I try, I like a man's penis with that on it.
Oh really, okay, I gotta go back and forth.
Montreal penis, it's delicious.
We can both agree on calf meat though is wonderful.
Like, huh, Emily was in intensive care
for 16 days after that.
Intensive care for 16 days, not the hospital.
So they charge him with one count of first degree murder
in the death of Carla, who disappeared,
also charged with attempting to murder his wife,
and two counts each of first degree sexual assault,
kidnapping by deceit and false imprisonment.
They can't charge him with Shelley Hansen,
they have nothing to go on, he won't admit to it.
I mean, he probably, I mean, what are the fucking odds that someone else in this
small town is gonna fucking kidnap and kill a girl that he is hanging out with on the
anniversary of him killing another girl?
Come on, he did it.
So in a letter to his parents, he apologized, this is from jail, he said he apologized for
breaking their hearts and he planned to commit suicide before the trial in order to spare them the heartache and embarrassment?
Okay
He admitted that he intended to kill Emily when he attacked her and he admitted killing Carla but denied torturing her
He said all that stuff. They said is crazy though the taste stuff on the tape was just for shock value
Except for the way that condition she's found to match is what you said
But yeah, no, he was like it was just like a goth teen just for shock value.
Just trying to make my grandma uncomfortable, that's all.
So he said he wrote that he lost control and strangled her when she refused to run away
with him.
He closed by comparing himself to Charles Manson and John Wayne Gacy.
He said, unlike those guys, he said, I'll bet they'll make a TV movie out of this.
I always wanted to be a star. Well, nobody's heard of you man. Holy shit. Yeah, too bad Dahmer stole his thunder
He was sitting there like I'm gonna be a star. He ate how many people how many god damn fuck for real
I can't do anything man
Fuck I'm the youngest I tried my thunder and now there's this. I tried so hard. Oh, I tried so hard.
He said that he apologized, he wrote the letter to his in-laws as well that we talked about
before, apologized for all the pain and suffering I've caused your family, you know, killed
one daughter, tried to kill another.
But he wanted them to quote, understand my side of this.
Oh boy.
How much of a narcissist do you have to be to be like, but you haven't heard what I have.
It hurts me too.
This limp dick, how dare you?
He said what happened was literally beyond his control.
He used the word literally.
He said, quote, I literally became someone else.
I refer to it as my dark side, like Dexter, dark passenger.
He wrote that his heavy drinking didn't
help matters any but no is no means in using that as an excuse he said he never
loved or respected himself he thanked God that Emily was spared he said she's a
wonderful woman capable of a lot of love if given the chance I never gave her or
myself the chance then he wrote a letter to Emily saying he still loved her and it was his love that made him
stop beating her and not kill her. I did this out of love. See this? This is love right here.
And he apologized for accusing her of cheating. And he said the accusation did not come from her,
it came from who, Jimmy? Nottice. Nautis, exactly. Yep.
None of those letters were delivered.
They were instead confiscated and put into evidence
because he's admitting to crimes during them.
So that's pretty bad there.
He will end up pleading guilty to murder.
Well yeah, who the fuck, how's he gonna get,
you can't, you can't do anything else.
He drew a map to the body, and since he did it.
That's it.
But not guilty to the other, and since he did it. That's it. But not guilty to the other shit, though, he pledged.
So yeah, he pleads guilty to murder
and pleads not guilty to the torture things here, too.
He pleads guilty to kidnap, murder, and seven charges
regarding the torture and attempted murder of his wife.
But he said he didn't torture Carla before he killed her.
I don't know why that's so important for him
to deal with here, but he's he didn't torture Carla before he killed her. I don't know why that's so important for him to deal with here, but he's...
He's ashamed.
Mm-hmm.
The judge asked him, did you kill your 17-year-old sister-in-law?
He said, yes.
They said, did you torture your wife?
He said, yes.
So the judge read nine of 18 charges in connection with the murder of Carla and the attempted
murder of Emily. And yeah, he sat there and they asked him if he burned her with a cigar, a lighted cigar.
Did you stick a safety pin in her breast?
Did you beat her in the head with a shovel?
Did you rape her with a wheelbarrow handle and all that kind of shit.
He also is pleading insanity as well.
So that's a two-phase trial, Guilt or innocence and then your mental state
in your sentencing. So he's going to plead and then try to plead insanity during the
sentencing part so they'll send him to a institution. He maintained the not guilty pleas to four
counts of sexual assault, three counts of rape, false imprisonment and sexual disfigurement regarding Carla's death. So this is fucking crazy.
The pre-trial here, the jury stuff
is pretty interesting actually too,
because it's a two-phase thing and they have to,
because there's so much stuff going on,
immediate attention, they have to sequester the jury
and they say it's gonna take weeks.
So it's nine women and five men and they'll
remain sequestered. They expect it to be a two to three week trial. They say in the paper
quote those chosen appear to be older than 30 with professions ranging from a nurse to
a computer specialist and a man who operates a foster home. The ones they excused included
a woman who said she thought pornographic
magazines influenced people to commit sexual crimes.
Yeah, we don't want her around. Just because she's no fun.
Never mind legalistically. Who wants to hang out with that broad for two and a half weeks?
Jesus Christ. Can't even whack it.
And another woman who said she would be upset if the testimony became too graphic.
Well, you should keep on. walk on by sister yeah that's it. One man was also excused
because he had a planned trip to Jamaica and he said that he wouldn't be able to
it's a non-refundable he said I can't reschedule it. I'm gonna be out like two
grand and the judge said quote have a rum punch on me and excused him. Enjoy your jerk chicken. Enjoy.
So they said they're going to introduce testimony
about a shotgun shell and hypodermic needle found
near the grave site.
And they said the shell and the needle
were in John Webber's car trunk, the same place
the tape recording states that he kept her for five days.
Carla, it establishes a link with the tape
that he carted around the remains
before depositing them in the gravesite
The part of the recording includes John Webber's statements about
Cannibalism will not be heard during the trial. Is that right? They said we're not gonna talk about it We're not gonna talk because there was no law saying you couldn't eat people
So because it's not being charged as a crime, they're saying it's inflammatory to say he ate people
But to me, he fucking
ate people. You gotta bring that up, right? You can't have people not knowing that he's
hungry for human flesh. Like, they have to know that.
How did this case happen? And then the very next day not go, oh, well, wait, there's no
law in the books? We gotta write that right now.
They started doing laws in the last like maybe 10 to 15 years
against cannibalism since Domirates came up.
Because before that, I don't think
they really thought it happened enough to really make it
an issue.
And they were like, well, if you're eating someone,
you probably killed them too.
So we'll worry about that part of it.
The eating really doesn't matter.
We'll just go with the murder part, because who cares?
Yeah.
If you're eating just bodies you found,
that's a different story. But what if a train hit somebody and you're just sitting there
snacking? Is that illegal or not? Oh by the way he then says later on too they
find out they find writings where he talked about how he dug up fresh graves
and cut pieces of women off and brought them home and ate them. Is that right?
This is a thing that he does yeah yeah he dug up, then he'd fucking put them back together again.
Fucking, so no one would know.
Dude, there's formaldehyde in that.
You can't eat that.
He ate it.
If you cook it enough.
Oh my God.
I think it's like eating like bad pork.
If you cook it enough, then you gotta cook all the poison out eventually.
Just cook it until it's leather.
Will you get fucked up, you think?
I mean, maybe it'd be like when you're on dust if you smoke it.
Like you smoke formaldehyde, maybe.
Jesus.
So no cannibalism evidence given, which is insane.
Absolutely insane.
The public defender said the information
shouldn't be considered.
He also asked the court to order the media
to leave the courtroom before discussing the request,
saying it would be too prejudicial to potential jurors.
Wow, the judge said, this is great, I will agree, I won't mention, the district attorney said this,
I'm sorry, I will agree, I won't mention the magic C word.
That's not the same one.
That's not, you can't say it like that.
I bet you won't, probably.
Yeah, that one will get you divorced.
I'm gonna go ahead and make a bet that normally prosecutors don't say the word cunt
during a murder trial in front of the jury.
Just as a fucking, yeah, it's cannibalism here.
We're not gonna call her the C word.
Shit, the judge also though rules that it can be brought up
during the second phase of the trial,
which is the insanity sentencing phase.
So, ruled on a bunch of motions as well, talking about no evidence can be brought in about
his interest in witchcraft or Satanism as well.
He's trying not to be inflammatory, I guess.
The first said the evidence on Emily Weber's statement that her husband was speaking in
two voices during the attack wouldn't be allowed either. Oh. Which is wild. But then the judge held a formal ruling and said,
it doesn't make any difference how many people were inside John Weber's body. It's whether the
body committed the acts. The second phase is whether he's crazy. This phase is did he killer.
So they said they're going to let it in. They also ruled on the physical evidence, like the
hypodermic needles and all that,
and they said they're gonna do that,
because the items we wish to present
show preparation, intent, and motive.
Gun, knife, and then he dug two graves.
Yeah, I would fucking say so.
He told deputies he only made the tape to scare his wife,
so they said you shouldn't let that in,
but they said, oh no, that's coming in.
That's coming in, minus the part about eating people.
We'll cut that part out.
They said the photographs, they asked that just no color.
They said, quote, there's no need for the color
except to inflame the jury's passions against Mr. Weber.
They're highly inflammatory, they're disgusting, the photos.
Black and white is all they want?
So they want just black and white allowed in.
So also good character evidence regarding Carla
will be allowed in, meaning that she said she wanted
to become a counselor and that people liked her
and all that kind of shit.
You weren't just killing some asshole that everyone hated
and was a dickhead.
Also, hospital records will all be allowed of Emily's shit.
And yeah, also they said that he has MS by the way, John.
Not severely, but he's been diagnosed with MS and they said that can be mentioned as
well.
Yeah.
So one thing we do know is hopefully at the end of this, he is in a lot of pain sleeping
on a prison cot with MS.
That shit hurts.
That's a shit disease.
I hope it's a very, I hope it's not even a cot.
I hope it's a concrete fucking ledge. That would be shit disease. I hope it's not even a cot. I hope it's a concrete fucking ledge.
That would be fucking great.
So they said that the tape would be allowed in because the conduct have exhibited like
the exact shit he said.
If it didn't match up, then it wouldn't do it.
But they said because it matches up so well to what happened, you got to let it in.
They said the defendant's conduct,
not only did the defendant's conduct
not exhibit an actual subjective expectation of privacy,
because they're saying that the,
he's saying that he had an expectation of privacy
of what was on the tape.
And they're like, no, you don't.
Your car was being searched and taken apart.
Right.
They said also it was in full view in the open,
accessible to anyone in the vehicle,
especially a police officer who was there.
And they said that's reasonable.
They said they conclude that the playing of the tape found in the cassette player of his
unlocked car did not amount to a search of the tape since he had no reasonable expectation
of privacy on the tape in the first place.
They said, yeah, they would have to, the defendant would have us view the tape as a container
and in the course of an inventory search, exclude the tape under the law of seizure
and search containers. So it was like inside of the safe that they couldn't get into, something like
that. But that's not what they're saying because it was sticking out. They said it's not like a 35
millimeter slide would be considered. They said any more than that would be considered a container
They said any more than that would be considered a container for the image, it's not.
So they said the wound tape is covered partially
by some protective plastic, just as a slide is covered
partially by some protective plastic or cardboard,
but the actual audio cassette in and of itself
is not capable of holding another object as a container is.
So there you go.
The shrink here is the guy who also examined Ed Gain.
Really?
Yeah, he's like, I gotta see this guy.
I found another one.
William J. Crowley.
He was not allowed to mention the Gain case
if asked about the experience.
If asked of his experience in court,
he wasn't allowed to say he talked to Ed Gain
because that would prejudice the jury. Like, oh, he talked to that psychopath, now he's talking to this one.
Wow.
That's very interesting.
So the trial comes up here, very tight security.
People have to go through metal detectors and get wanded down in a tiny town because
somebody's going to try and kill him.
Someone's going to come in with a hunting rifle and shoot this fucking guy.
Yeah, all these people have shitloads of guns.
Shitloads of guns, and this is, he's a disgusting person.
He's really inflamed a lot of ire from the community here.
Yeah, they're armed to the teeth, and he's certainly a problem that needs to be dealt with.
And they have guns that they're worried about getting attacked by bears when they go outside,
like in the woods up here, like this is bear country, like they're, these are strong ones. So this is that's yeah. Emily's the star witness,
obviously. Right. Yeah. First, they had to go through all the thing. What kind of cigarettes
does he smoke? Salem lights. What kind of beer does he drink? M G D. Like they go through
the whole deal. Boy. Also, what kind of guns does he own? A 410 gauge shotgun, 22 caliber
rifle, 25 caliber pistol.
And they said he was an avid hunter as well, which he was.
Then they said the night that Carla disappeared, would your husband have known that Carla
and Joe were home alone that night?
She said yes.
They said, would it have been unusual for your sister Carla to have left home at that
time, that time of the night after everybody else had gone to work and said yes and they go through
all that.
She would never have left the house.
It would have to have been for a very short time.
So Emily describes her entire ordeal.
She said, quote, he said if I didn't write it, he would cut my boobs off about the messaging.
She talks about being kicked and punched as hard as he could punch her, striking her with
a shovel, using a lit cigar to burn her all over her body putting safety pins
We went over it all she said I was on my knees
He started kicking me in the head and he was hitting me with a shovel
He was going he said I was going to be a tough one to kill
Now the cross-examination. What do you say? This is all proven. He admitted this
The defense attorney said did you smell alcohol on his breath that night?
Do you know if he'd been drinking?
And she said that he put her in the tub and cleaned her wounds.
He didn't know what she didn't know whether he was drinking or not.
She didn't smell it.
So yeah, they during this, by the way, the Hanson family is like, Hey, you know, this is our guy right fucking here.
The one guy said, I'm wondering, one family member, I wonder like everyone else, I think
it's curious. Weber's not saying anything. He won't discuss anything with, he won't
discuss anything with his lawyer or do anything like that. They said, there's a lot of weird
people in this world. I just hope Shelley. And and then he says every day I pray to st. Anthony that they will find my Shelley
I like candles at the church and when people ask me what they can do. I tell them to remember Shelley in their prayers
Oh, that's fucked up st. Anthony's the one when you lose lost right?
So I think Hanson is short for something I think they shortened it when they got here some shit
Yeah, Hanson Aroney for something. I think they shortened it when they got here. So I'm sure it's yeah. Hanson Aroney.
So the November 12th, they talk about the defense closing says November 12th, 1986,
John Webber kidnapped and murdered his sister-in-law.
Okay.
That's the defense, by the way.
On September 3rd, 1988, Mr.
Webber kidnapped, sexually assaulted and physically assaulted his wife, Emily Webber.
He went over all the charges.
He said he's guilty of what he has done.
It doesn't necessarily follow that he's guilty of what he's charged with.
He said, ladies and gentlemen, John Webber is guilty of some vile and disgusting acts.
No question about that.
But the tape was a fabrication made to frighten his wife.
He said if John Web Weber had cut the breast
off a living person it would generate a lot of blood. And he said there wasn't a lot of
blood in the sun bird's trunk, which he could have hosed out like Henry Hill. I hit a skunk
Karen, right? So the verdict comes in, who knows here, you never know, guilty of everything.
Fuck that. Guilty of all charges here. Then in the second phase, then now they go into, you know.
Is he sane or is he?
Is he insane?
Yeah.
He said he's suffering.
His attorney said he's suffering from a mental defect
when he attacked Carla.
He said his client was a sexual sadist who
derived sexual pleasure from torturing and humiliating
women.
He said since a very young age,
John Webbers built an elaborate mechanism,
an internal device to deal with his illness
and to hide the extent of that illness from other people,
his family, his friends, his wife,
and the doctors who've attended him.
And the state said they would prove that he was intoxicated
during both attacks, which they said were motivated
by hatred and jealousy.
They said he meticulously planned each attack,
weeks in advance got drunk so he could carry them out.
That gave him the balls, like Jeffrey Dahmer
did the same thing.
That's very much, you gotta put him in the mix too.
Wow, Dahmer and David Parker Ray are not a good mix to have.
Mixed with some Ted Bundy
and a little bit of BTK sprinkled on top.
And then just too stupid to execute further.
He could have been like serial killer Voltron,
like the fucking worst of all worlds,
like all put together.
If he's smart at all,
he can really do a lot of damage to people.
And it's at a time when it's so easy to do horrible things
because you're not being tracked and videotaped everywhere.
Yeah, no, there's no videotape.
Nobody's got GPS on their phone that shows everywhere they went.
So then they explained also that this is not his fault, not his.
His mom testifies too.
And they talked about his bedwetting
and finding magazines.
They said, were the magazines hardcore?
She said, very.
I only had to read about three lines and I destroyed them.
She said they were nothing like Playboy.
She said it just kept happening.
She kept finding them.
She referred to them as stinky magazines.
It's a very innocent Wisconsin lady.
She also testified to discovering detailed plans written in John's handwriting for sexually
abusive acts against his own sister, one of his female teachers,
and a female schoolmate.
Oh my God.
Yeah, they also found out that she was disapproving
of his marriage to Emily.
They say, in your mind, do you consider Emily
to be at least partly the reason John finds himself
in the predicament he's in?
This is the defense attorney.
His mom says, quote, I do.
How? How?
How?
Go on.
How could I?
Yeah.
They said, why is that?
Yeah.
She said, because they fought forever and ever and over everything.
And then they said, do you think that the attack on Emily was sparked by anger?
And she said, yes.
They brought the sister in, Cathy.
Oh, man.
She said, yeah, he was such a good, kind man who was kind to animals and helpful to his
neighbors.
She said, you couldn't find a person with a bigger heart.
He'd do anything for anybody.
He shoveled all the neighbors walks.
Ooh, shovel's a bad one.
And mowed their lawn.
The elderly women who couldn't do it themselves, he'd go and do it.
He was so good hearted.
But then she talked about hearing him argue with his other personality, Natas and all that kind of shit. And she said, I just felt that it
was sick of me to think that he did the things to Carla. When she disappeared to put the
blame on somebody who's trying to do better. I felt guilty for even thinking those thoughts.
Yeah. They find him sane and ready to go to prison. He's an asshole, but sane. Sentencing
comes around and they say, anything to say for yourself, Johnny boy? He says, regardless
of the facts and the verdict of the jury, for a number of years, there's been something
seriously wrong with me. Whether I had control or not is up to each individual to decide.
It does no good to say I'm sorry.
I can't take back the hurt I've caused to the lens family and my own family.
Wherever you send me, I asked that treatment be available.
I have to find out why this is a terrible waste of a man who had everything he
needed for a happy life to just throw it away. It just doesn't make any sense.
The judge said, what's there? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I gotta find out why this is happening.
Is there any hope down there?
Yeah, what the fuck's up with me? The judge said, quote, I know one thing, there are a
lot of extremely thankful ex-girlfriends out there who are thankful to be ex-girlfriends
that are still alive. This judge has a sense of humor. Have a rum punch on me. Do this.
I got some jokes, yeah.
He said, this court must ensure that no other unsuspecting
female is ever exposed to your depravity. There's no way that I could face the family of such a girl.
The Bible says that three score in 10 years is a lifetime. By that measure, the maximum penalty
you face is equal to five lifetimes. For many, that would still be too good for you. There's
nothing this court could do that would be sufficient punishment
in the eyes of the public.
The problem is that we live in a civilized society
and we treat criminals in a civilized manner.
We don't have adequate punishment
for such uncivilized conduct.
We don't even expect this crazy shit to happen.
We don't know how to do this.
He said the best punishment would be to turn you over
to Carla's brothers for 24 hours,
but that would be an uncivilized solution.
He said, you must never be free.
You must never be in a position where this can happen again.
He said that Carla Lenz's last words on this planet were, God damn you, John.
He said, then he said, many people wish the court had that authority.
The punishment will have to come from a court much higher than this one.
You sir, may fuck off life plus 164 years and nine months in prison.
And nine months.
And nine months.
Life plus 164.9.
That's a fuck off, mister.
Not interested in you.
Quickly, by the way, he appeals this and it's overturned based on the fact that they rule
that the tape, listening to the tape, which led to everything else, was a bad search.
They said that the playing of the tape was without probable cause
because the plain view doctrine
could not be used to justify
the search of a tape's contents.
In addition, because the tape was completely unrelated
to the object sought in the crime against Emily,
she didn't beat her with a tape,
and because the police had no basis
for believing the tape disclosed evidence
of any other crime,
playing the tape would not be justified.
But the next year, this was 1990, they overturned his murder, his murder conviction and 10 additional
convictions in this.
But he tries to get the rest tossed as well.
But then the prosecution appeals that decision and they go, nope, tape's good.
Everything's back in.
Fuck off. Life plus 164.9, eight dicks.
Emily divorces him shortly after his conviction,
that kind of goes without saying.
In prison he was remanded to the custody
of the Wisconsin State Department of Corrections,
had a brief stay at the Dodge Reception Center,
then he was transferred to Columbia Correctional Institution
where he's joined about a year
and a half later by Jeffrey Dahmer.
Wow.
Same fucking buildings house these two monsters here.
Unbelievable.
Dahmer of course was murdered by an inmate in 94, but in 2001 John was transferred to
the Green Bay Correctional Facility and he remains there.
Can you get a hold of them?
Yeah, remains there to this day.
So there he is.
Wow.
That is fucked up to say the least.
What a monster.
That's a monster.
That's Phillips, Wisconsin, everybody.
That's just Wisconsin.
Wow.
Disturbing.
Sorry for that, but you had to hear the disturbing stuff because that's the story.
I mean, we got to tell the story the way it is.
We can't cut stuff out and go well we thought that was too mean.
Like it's a murder.
It's all terrible.
So definitely if you like the way we won't say if you like that story.
If you like the way we told that story and thought it was quality please give us a review
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never do any of the stuff that that guy did, that John Weber did. So do that. You get much
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One crime in sports, one small town murder.
How much of that do they get?
Every goddamn drop.
This week for Crime and Sports, which you get,
you're gonna talk about the trials
and tribulations of Hulk Hogan.
There are a lot.
His kid kills people, he makes sex tapes,
he sues Gawker, he yells the N-word,
he's a Christian.
It's all weird.
We'll talk all about it.
Then let's talk about for small town murder,
backed by popular demand.
It's time to do it again.
We're going to talk about the weirdest small town festivals
we can find and what goes on there
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We'll hear all about it. We cannot wait patreon.com
Slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show because fuck we appreciate you and you have to
Give you a shout out
So that said damn it Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful wonderful people on the face of this earth
Just tell me who they are
I need to know they'd never inject me with a hypodermic needle
full of lighter fluid.
Hit me with them now.
This week's executive producers are Greg Dreher,
I believe, Gregory Dreher, I think.
Dreher.
Hey.
Oh, there's Maher that's a kicker,
so it might be Dreher.
Or Dreher.
God damn it, thank you.
Dreher, I don't even know her.
Kyle Norwig and his Crown Royal bag.
Good for you, Kyle.
Lisa Pittman, Raptor One, happy birthday.
From Raptor Two, over.
That is Andrea Stanchion.
I don't know who Raptor Two is or one.
I don't know.
It's somebody's birthday, and it's somebody close to her.
So happy birthday.
Happy damn birthday.
Ryan Christopher also.
Our executives, we appreciate you.
Thank you so much.
Other producers this week are Scarlet Horbeast
and Estevez Jones, James.
Around the banks of the Tug River.
Wow, very nice.
NYPD officer Murray Greshner.
I believe that's from NYPD Blue, I think.
I think it is, possible.
Oregon player that the Hanson Bros hit with a puck.
Oh, that's great.
That guy too.
Knock him out, man.
Peyton Meadows.
Had a tough day.
Jennifer Ward, Janice Hill.
Diecast 360, Rebecca J., Elizabeth Domingo,
Raven with no last name.
Oh, actually Diecast, I believe, is an exec, he is.
What'd I do that for?
I put in the wrong spot.
I apologize.
You're fucking outstanding and over the top also.
Elizabeth Domingo, Raven with no last name.
Robert Gohs, Exploring.
Judy Berry, Matthew Shields, Jessica G., Ashley Boone.
Jenny Migs, Meigs maybe? I'm not sure.
Ryan Burrow, Heather, nope, that's Hunter.
Hunter Martin.
Hey.
Sorry, Hunter.
Eric Amarise, Chantel Vasquez.
Jennifer Rothgeb.
Tawny with no last name.
Melanie Renton.
Anthony, oh, it's Andy Felter Bush,
and he probably didn't.
Love James' voice.
That's somebody.
Michael Ballas.
Yeah, Ballas.
Arsenic Catnip.
That's fucking disgusting.
Mean.
Don't do that, you fucking monster.
Carolyn, Carolyn, Caroline maybe,
Cionya, Rose McCoy, Brandon Holliday, Christopher Subkleff,
Nick Lambrite, Kristen Schmidt, Miley would know last name,
Gerald Ribbons, Biz would know last name,
Brandon Pavlov, Elijah W., The Doyle would know last name,
just one, The Doyle.
Singular Doyle.
No, I get it, pod.
Yeah, exactly.
No, I get it, pod.
I believe that's, I don't know.
Amy Folter, that's not somebody's name.
Owen Coates, Devon Nellie Randall, Wade Halverson,
Val Birch.
Don't confuse Jimmy, guys.
Come back.
Rebecca Rebecca.
That's maybe her first and last or just her first.
Or Lisa Lisa.
That's exactly what it is.
All right, Angelique Artichoccio.
Artichoccio, or Chocho.
Chocho, that's not right either, that's gross.
Wallow in that Italian last name, Jimmy.
Lactradecta, Lactradecta, I don't know what that is.
That might be a disease.
I think it's a dinosaur, isn't it?
Oh, maybe.
Is it a flying dinosaur, a Lachodectra?
It's possible.
I don't know.
Not sure.
Sean Donnelly, Jacob Ricketts, Holly Hallborg,
Chart Ganesh, I believe.
Okay, thank you.
Megan Cravens, John Fire, oh, like lawyer, but fire.
Christina Lapsansky, Cora Hudson,
Justin with no last name, Mary Jean C,
Anti-Rowitz, Sam Ritz, Catherine Gagne,
Natasha Tanner, Lauren Williams,
Aaron Clark, Holly, Holly Kostavichy-nichi.
Yeah.
Kostavichy, Jared Bradway, Angela Nougent, all right, now it's getting fucked
up.
Nugent.
You're really off the rails.
Philist with no last name, Chris Livingston, Valera 70, Molly Ott, Kristen Frazier, Lucy
Bryant, Alia Yarday, B-O-F, Harvey Fox, Jonathan Rodriguez, Nikki G., JT with no last name, Luca Chiafredo, Abigail Mitchiner,
Kristi Robison, Christine Cinquegrana.
Cinquegrana.
Brooklyn Bulls.
You went over the white line on the side for a second
but you pulled it back on the road.
Keep going.
Jeff with no last name, Nicole Durand-Crupa,
Shelby Metcalf-Gretchen with no last name,
Darren Sutton, Jesse Williams, Jen Carr, Dakota,
nope, that's Dark Lotus Kisses,
Jeff Keen, live for today,
Stephanie Brevig, Ollie Terry, Sean Holder,
Cam Sharpie, Beth Bott, Allison Barham,
LeVon Herrera, Josh Taylor, Julie with no last name,
Rachel with no last name, Tanya Vieira,
Remy with no last name, Britt Fulkerson, Claudette with no last name, Rachel with no last name, Tanya Vieira, Remy with no last name, Britt Fulkerson, Claudette with no last name,
Trevor O'Connor, Tani with no last name,
Rita Waltz, Benjamin Streisick,
Aubrey H., Susan Kelly, Amy Edwards,
Keely Reinert, Steph Earl, Billy Harris,
Kimberly Dyer, Tammy Sappington, Dylan Fisher,
Elizabeth with no last name,
Eric Chopin, like Frederick Chopin.
Fuck you, Chopin.
Maybe it's Eric Chopin.
We both immediately go there.
John Scarbaggio, Mom Bob WG,
Bobby Hereboth, Carla Carla G Nicole Reza
Daniela Johnson Aaron Julius Katie Oliver Kara long guy. Oh boy. Long long garbardi long long
long What long Bogart? All right, Ray Bullock. I've done my best Michael Humecki Ryan black Ashley
Kaser Edward no last name John Shine Stephanie Taylor Nina, Slawinska Maria with no last name, John Shine, Stephanie Taylor, Nina Slawinska,
Maria with no last name, oh it's Marie,
Caitlin M., Heather Chastain, Eric Sumsione,
Cody Giles, Bridget Seidel, Shandy Brown,
Drafton, Victoria Moore, Andrew Narsh,
Melanie Lude, Andrea Adriana Farmer, Isaiah Vig, Vigu,
Paul Bros, Paul the Brothers, Rachel, nope, yeah it is,
Rachel Henry Ricketts, Rene Burdette, Christine Gillette,
Tom Scott, Charlotte Warner, Ashley Jansen,
Michelle LaPointe, Will F, Leah Norton, Lefty Vegan,
oh boy, Scott Fulmsenby, Tracy B. Bud,
what is this, Budsydaisies, and everybody who came to our fucking shows this weekend
and donated via Patreon, PayPal, Ever, you guys are fucking amazing. Thank you so much.
Thank you everybody so much. From the bottom of our hearts, we appreciate all that you do for us and all that you've done for us.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
You want to find us out there on social media, very easy.
The website has all of our links to everything.
So find it, follow us, hang out with us, keep coming back, and we'll be back.
And until next week everybody, it's been our pleasure.
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