The Joe Rogan Experience - #2134 - Paul Stamets
Episode Date: April 11, 2024Paul Stamets is a mycologist and advocate for bioremediation and medicinal fungi. He has written, edited, and contributed to several books, including "Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Save the Worl...d," and "Fantastic Fungi: How Mushrooms Can Heal, Shift Consciousness, and Save the Planet." www.paulstamets.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript
Discussion (0)
The Joe Rogan Experience.
What is going on my friend?
How are you?
Good to see you again.
Good to see you brother.
It's been a while.
It's been a while and there's a lot of interesting developments.
So this is a never ending story I feel.
The never ending story of mushrooms. Yeah. So this giant one that youending story. I feel the never-ending story of mushrooms
Yeah, so this giant one that you brought me explain this again because you were telling me out there I'm like, let's save this for the show
Sure, this is a the best gift that I can give if I'm a mycologist to a friend
This is a rare old growth mushroom called a garakon only grows in the old growth forest
Is now in the red list of threatened species in Europe.
This one was found on the ground, folks,
so it's important that people don't pick these.
They're very rare.
Literally, one out of 100 times
in the old growth forest, I'll find one.
So this is really important that people understand
how important biodiversity, mycodiversity,
we're talking about fungi,
agaricon was first described by Dioscorides over 2,000 years ago as elixirium ad longum
vitum, the elixir of long life, is also revered by the Haida and the clicket in the Northwest
First Nations as a mushroom very important for their own pharmacopeia.
So 2,000 years history of use, other sides of the world, and directly after 9-11 I was
approached by the BioShield, the biodefense department, and they ran over 2,200 assays.
The concern was weaponizable viruses.
So they saw an article I wrote in Herbogram called
Novel Antivirals from Mushrooms, a whopping one page long. That's all there was in the
scientific literature. So I knew in my intuition this rare species could have
some properties. Of more than two million samples tested by the US Defense
Department, US AMRID, U.S. Army Research
Institute Infectious Diseases, and NIH, in collaboration of more than 2 million samples,
synthetics, and natural compounds, we were in the top 10 of all samples active against,
in this case, pox viruses, and we were the only natural product.
So there's a vetted press release that talks about this that came out in 2004. So I have dedicated my life,
you know, I have a company and fortunately I put them a lot of my
resources. I've literally spent millions of dollars collecting strains from the
old growth forest and I'm happy to announce that we have more than a hundred
and seven strains of agaricon isolated from Northern California,
even Northern Arizona, British Columbia, and in Europe. I have now the largest culture library
of agaricon in the world. And so people go, why is this important? Well, it's not important
because the old growth forests are declining. I mean, there's less than 1%. But I believe the old growth forests are cultural
libraries that will be essential for bio defense. And from the research that we did with the
BioShield program in 2004, then I have a TED talk in 2008 that talks about those. And then
I'm very thankful that we have completed a COVID-19 clinical trial. The results of which was presented
at the Georgetown University of Medicine,
School of Medicine on September 23rd, 2023.
And what we looked at, and my colleagues
and superb physicians and researchers
led by a great team at the Crop Center
for Integrative Medicine,
the University of California San Diego.
And it's a double-blind placebo-controlled study.
And in that study, the idea was to look at vaccine enhancement.
So before mRNA vaccines, there was just so much noise and confusion and, you know, the
sense that dust hadn't settled enough.
But the mRNA enhancement vaccine, which is called Mach 19, they gave half the patients
a placebo, which was mycelium grown on rice, I'm sorry, just rice, and agaricon and turkey
tail combined that were grown on rice.
So one, the control of placebo is just
rice neutral. And the other one is a garrocon on turkey tail that turkey tail is the most well
studied medicinal mushroom in the world. We populate a website for physicians at mushroom
references.com no branding, just pure science. People can go to mushroom references.com and see
this. So double-line placebo controlled,
and they literally recruited people directly
out of vaccination lines,
where people getting Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.
And said, hey, do you wanna be involved
in a medicinal mushroom vaccine study, enhancement study?
And people then signed up.
And so they got,
they consumed ag garot on a
turkey tail or the placebo for four days. And then they
measured symptoms post vaccination and then six months
out. And so I there are two slides that I have that I sent
along to that I'm allowed to show when you say symptoms post vaccination, what do you mean?
Well, it's not quite showing up there, Jamie, for some reason the chart, both of them might
have to do a PNG on the snapshot.
Which one?
You want both at the same time?
No, just see if you can, the charts are not showing up for whatever reason.
No words. are not showing up for whatever reason.
No worries. So what happens, I mean, I've got MNRA vaccine.
You feel like you're hit by a truck, right?
Two days later, you got the vaccine
and some physicians say, well, that's your immune system
acting or reacting.
So there was 10 symptoms that the CDC has identified, the Center for Disease
Control, that are adverse events due to vaccines. They're actually, UCSD has 25 symptoms. So
the idea was to look at whether agaric and turketail reduce the adverse effects of vaccines.
And how would they do that? Well, they measure, they ask you, would you get a headache? Right, but I mean, how would the mushrooms reduce the... Well, this is a very good
question. We had to convince the FDA that these were safe. And so because we had sold hundreds of
thousands of agaricon and turkey tail with no adverse effects, we were able to prove that. So
it went through, they called the Institution of Review Boards and the FDA for approval,
and they approved it. Now, the biggest concern they had was if you stimulate the immune system which is the the presumption of how these Muslims work
you could create a cytokine storm and so this is one of the charts though this
was written up in JAMA and the concern was a cytokine storm poses the greatest risk,
not the virus itself.
And so when people took agaricon, day one is where the vaccination occurred with Moderna
or Pfizer mRNA.
And then if you look at the black line, that's the placebo, which is just the rice, and FOTV
is fomey, Thompson's, Fischenales, Trimides, Versicolor, that's agar rice, and FOTV is fomitopsis, fissionalis, trinitis, and vascular.
That's a garakon and turkey tail combined.
And you'll see that at day two and day three,
on the scale there, there's almost no adverse effects.
And whereas those people who did not take a garakon
and turkey tail had a massive increase in adverse symptoms.
Now, an article just came out this past year.
30% of people avoid vaccinations
because they fear the adverse effects.
Because they hear people miss school, miss work,
they feel terrible, they go, I don't wanna get a vaccine.
Not just that, the really scary ones,
like myocarditis, pericarditis, heart attack, strokes,
blood clots.
So the reason why the FDA approved this,
we have been making the argument, is we found that these two
mushrooms stimulated what's called anti-inflammatory cytokines, interleukin 1RA and interleukin
10.
Now, most of the, when you have an immune response, many of these interleukins is part of your
natural immunity, but they can cascade and they can then unthrottled create a cytokine storm. So most people then die from overstimulation
of the immune system, inflammatory reaction. We found that with agaricon and turkey tail,
we were able to reduce the adverse effects, which are inflammatory effects, headache, sore throat, insomnia, muscle ache, soreness,
malaise, etc. Insomnia is also included. So this was a big surprise. It was double-limb
placebo. I had no access to any of the data until it was unmasked, which is normal. So
we found that. And then something else very, very surprising occurred. And as to credit
to my colleagues, they came up with this idea at the University of California
Krupp Center for Integrative Medicine is let's look at antibody extension.
The idea with the vaccines is you create antibodies to prevent the spike protein from docking
on your cells and gaining entrance and infecting your cells.
So they looked at
people six months later. Now, 89 out of 90 people, I think, came back six months later.
Tremendous conformity. Let's take your blood six months later. And then Jamie, if you can
pull up the next slide. And this is what we found that was so astonishing. Six months
later with the short exposure to a garot
con and turkey tail there was a carrying on where the antibody response was far
greater than that of the reservoir of antibodies just from the vaccine. Are
these people that actually contracted COVID as well? These are what we call
naive. We want them, we didn't, when you get COVID then the antibody response gets very cloudy and then you have antibody response from your natural
immune system, then you have the, the, the vaccine itself. So these are called the vaccine naive group.
I mean the virus naive group. We did not want them to have the virus. So we track them to make sure
that they did not get the virus, but this elevates you into a state of immune readiness.
And this is a thing I did not know. I did not know if you're immunologically depressed,
you have immunologically lower activity due to whatever reason, if you get a vaccine,
your antibody response is not that great. Your immune cell levels are very low. They're very not not very active. What's exciting about this, the immunologists, is that if you can upregulate
immunity and then get the vaccine, your immune cell population is much more robust, much
more responsive. And so the antibody response is much greater. And this is what we found.
The fact that extended out six months, we didn't go out a year, we didn't go out longer.
And this is just for a short dosing?
Short dosing of only four days.
And this was the dosing that happened right after the vaccine?
Right simultaneously in the same day the vaccine for four days.
Now, this is where, this is one of my favorite phrases by Volterra, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
You can twist yourselves into pretzels
to try to explain how this works.
But the bottom line, it does work.
And if you could up-regulate community immunity
of the population, the problem that I did not realize
is immunologically depressed people,
when they get a vaccine, their antibody response
is not only poor, but they become
a breeding ground for vaccine resistance. So you have a lot more virus replicating. You
want to stop the viral replication early on in the process. So the more antibody response
and more robust your response is specific to this virus and other viruses. And this
is what we're really wondering now. Wow. How does this carry over to other viruses. And this is what we're really wondering. Now, wow, how does this carry over to other viruses?
Can I stop you?
How does it work?
What's the mechanism that's causing this to happen?
We think there is an entourage effect of multiple mechanisms
that are in play.
We know that it increases cell immunity.
So daughter cells, when they're created,
don't pass on the virus.
We've been able to show that, which is extraordinary.
But it speaks to host defensive immunity.
The immune cells, your immune cells are enabled, your endogenous immune system is able to prevent the virus from replicating.
And that's what's so exciting.
We know the anti-inflammatory effects.
So we have this, as one person said, you're putting on the gas pedal and you put on the brakes at the same time,
you can augment immunity and decrease inflammation.
Now that's what these vaccine companies
are spending billions of dollars.
Let's create a vaccine without any adverse effects.
The fact that you can take a natural product
that's been used for thousands of years,
or diasporitis is one of the fathers of medicine.
The fact that it's been used for so long, we know it's safe.
And now in this time, we are finding we have 100 plus strains of agaricon.
So I think we have a super strain in my library.
And that's what I'm trying to discover.
What strain in our library of 107 strains now?
We just used one strain and we saw these effects.
So if we can boost community immunity,
then we can ameliorate the spread of pandemics, obviously.
And when you're saying there's all these different strains,
there's 107 strains?
We have 107 strains in our library,
the largest library in the world.
There is probably hundreds of thousands of strains
if there are hundreds of thousands of mushrooms or millions of mushrooms, but there aren't.
This species is rapidly on the brink of becoming extremely
threatened, if not extinct. Can it be repopulated? We can culture it in a
laboratory. All we need is a tiny piece of tissue. You can't reintroduce it into
forests? We have inoculated it from snags, which have been unsuccessful.
The idea would be we'd like to reintroduce it into forests, or we can...these forests
are like islands, genomic libraries of islands that we need to protect.
And this is why I made the statement in my TED talk, we should save the old growth forests
as a matter of national defense.
That's not quite correct.
It's for international defense. Vir viruses don't care about borders.
And we've entered, Joe, we've entered into a period of viral storms. We're going to have
viral storms converging at us all the time now. And it's due to factory farming, the
collision of industrialization, suburbanization, ecosystems, on those margins.
What we're facing now that's currently in the news is bird flu.
Six different herds of cattle have been infected
with bird flu, first time in history.
First time in history.
It's jumped from birds to large mammals, cattle.
From Idaho, and it's now got scientists on high alert.
This is from Nature.
This is bird flu outbreak in US cows.
Why scientists are concerned.
The virus has killed hundreds of millions of birds, has now infected cattle in six US
states, but the threat to humans is currently low.
Currently low because if it jumps to pigs, we already know the viruses that infect pigs
can infect very likely humans.
So cows and pigs are oftentimes in the same farms.
If it jumps to pigs, we're in trouble.
Yeah, we're in big trouble because that's just one species away historically in virology.
Swine viruses, H1N1 is swine flu. We have found high activity at the
Bioshield program of agaric and also against H1N1 and H5N1.
Is it possible to give this to cows?
Don't know.
Hmm.
Don't know.
So my concern and those of other virologists that I've been in contact with for literally decades now, is it's strange that six herds of cattle from Idaho to Oklahoma to Texas
would spontaneously get bird flu. It's not like the cattle made contact with each other.
So there's more than one epicenter. When you have these epizoonotic centers where the virus can jump to larger
mammals, then you have many, many ground zeros for the virus to emerge. So if it jumps to
swines or to pigs or hogs, the increased likelihood that it jumps to people.
So it's a very big concern.
With Wuhan, okay, it came out of one city, one location.
But this is showing epidemiologically that the virus is jumping to larger mammals simultaneously.
Right now it doesn't have the mutation, and so there's very low risk.
Let's be very clear about that. There's very low risk, but virologists
are an extremely high alert because of this unusual pattern of sudden
occurrence. First time ever. It's jumped to seals and bears of all things, and it's
devastated hundreds of millions of birds around the world. Do they have any idea where this gets so that it originated with birds?
Yes, it's called bird flu.
And do they think that it's just birds traveling to these different herds?
Generally speaking, that's the, that's the modality that most,
so they just fly around, give it to new cows.
They fly, they go to a pond, you know, they're co,
co mingling the virus and drinking water, you know,
egrets sit on top of cows and
get bugs off the backs of large mammals etc. So migratory birds of
course is the most obvious vector. But when you have factory farming of
chickens and hundreds of thousands of chickens this past year, I think hundreds
of millions of chickens if you look it up have been euthanized in the past year
because they did get H5N1.
And so the chickens start sneezing and they get sick and it's extremely communicable.
So it spreads throughout the chicken farms very quickly.
So the USDA, NIH, everyone involved in biosecurity is extremely concerned about this new event,
which just happened in the past few weeks.
And that report I showed you just showed up yesterday in Nature as well. So if it mutates,
you know, it's a whole new pandemic threat, and it's much more severe. The estimates from from humans getting bird flu, H5N1,
is up to 70% mortality.
70%, not 0.1% or 0.01% with COVID, is 70%.
Now, some people say 40%, okay, you reduce it by 30%.
We do have vaccines already in the pipeline
that are anticipating this, so that's the good news.
The flu virus,
VIROM as it's called, has been very well characterized. But the mutation rate is what's of concern. And there's since there's so many different localities that are spontaneously
infecting cows, this virus is on the move. And that is the concern that we all have.
And so by boosting community immunity,
we can then have more immune cells to produce antibodies
that make the vaccines more effective.
And the idea is you can help avoid vaccine evasion
by having your endogenous immune system
at its peak performance.
How does this stuff work without vaccines?
How does this stuff work without vaccines? We have early evidence on how it works without vaccines, and I want to be very respectful,
but I also have to be very professional.
I am not at liberty to discuss those results for a number of reasons, one of which the
data, as I mentioned, is a little clouded because the people that we were bringing in to the first study, we didn't have them as well
characterized. But clearly, a garakon on Turkey Tail, with the evidence that was presented, again,
September 23rd, 2023, at the Georgetown School, Georgetown University School of Medicine,
these two charts, I can present to you because they were publicly presented.
We do have a paper in process
that's being submitted to a journal
and has to go through the ACID test,
a peer review, et cetera, but there's a team of us
and we're very excited about this research results
because it's not gonna, I'm hoping it's not gonna be
the vaccine of the month scene where you just are constantly creating, getting new vaccines for every variant. If
you can have your endogenous immune system, you know, on the ready, then it can then have
an innate response to these viral infections that will ameliorate their spread. And that's
the whole key idea is to keep the viral loads down as low as possible.
And so what is the mechanism that these two together help strengthen your immune system?
Well, that's a really good question. We know that with a turkey tail, we did a breast cancer
clinical study phase one that was also published with breast cancer patients. We see augmentation
of many immune cells, including cytotoxic
T cells, macrophages, and natural killer cells. Statistically significant. It also was a phase
one study.
And for people to know, phase one studies are pretty small. There tend to be safety
studies. You know, there are usually a few dozen people, sometimes as few as six. Our
study had 90 people, the COVID study, the breast cancer clinical study, I think
had about 28 people.
But also compared to placebo, the mycelium grown in rice, this is so important, it's
not the fruit bodies, it's the mycelium that has this effect of being able to upregulate
immunity and downregulate inflammation.
So with a breast cancer clinical study, it was shown to be safe. It
was shown to augment several of the immune cell responses.
By how much?
Well there's two ways of, three ways of answering that. There's the amplitude of the immune
cells, which is I think I remember, six times baseline.
There is different immune cells in terms of their activity and how they increase.
But the significance value, which is the P value, as people know it, was, I think, less
than.001.
It showed highly significant effects, which are outside of the realm of chance. And so we were able to show
immune regulation. The breast cancer clinical study did not measure
anti-inflammatory cytokines. And so again, we have this incredibly complex immune
system that's developed over hundreds of millions of years. And it's not this
magical bullet approach that many people in integrative
medicine are focused on. It's the entourage effect. And so when you create a entourage of
enabling stimuli that has the immune system react, a lot of us believe there's cross-talk
between the receptors. A receptor saying, okay, this is helpful, it awakens other receptors, and then you get
this so quorum response of the immune system at a higher state of readiness without being
detrimental to the body that's created the immune system.
So the cytokine storm and overreaction of inflammatory responses is a huge concern with
any immunostimulant. So that's why in JAMA,
it was written up, the concern about the cytokine storm. I co-authored an article with the University
of Arizona School of Medicine physicians, also warning people, be very careful about immunostimulation,
even with the medicine of mushrooms, but we had this evidence already
that the mushroom mycelium throttled back the inflammatory consequences by upregulating
interleukin 1RA and interleukin 10.
And at MushroomReferences.com, you can see all these references right on the very front
of the website.
So all this stuff has been used forever, right?
It's been used for thousands of years.
And what do we know about what they used it for
or how they found out that it worked or anything like that?
That's a really great question, actually.
It was used as an anti-inflammatory, as a poultice, to reduce muscle aches.
And would they just use the fruiting body?
The fruiting bodies would be powdered.
But the fruiting bodies are not the anti-inflammatory stuff?
The fruiting bodies may have anti-inflammatory actions, but we found the mycelium increases
the host offense.
It supports immunity, urinate immunity.
So this is why, you know, it's been used for thousands
years as a poultice, you know, and ointments, you know, etc. And so it has a long, you know,
back in the day before we could elucidate the different aspects of what's happening
medically in the human body, there's sort of like these very broad umbrellas that were
describing, you know, getting into homeostasis.
This is typical.
Is this supposed to take this with food or without food?
Either way, it doesn't matter.
I take them in the morning.
I feel like I'm just eating them.
Why am I sitting here?
Just telling me all these things.
I'm getting scared.
Don't be scared.
I mean, this is not a time for widespread panic, but it is time for it to be...
Well, I mean, the analogy I make, we all buy car insurance, right?
And the unlikelihood that we're gonna get
in a car accident today or tomorrow.
So why not preemptively invest
in your own immunological health by being prepared
so should you get exposed, you don't become a super spreader.
Right.
And so this is where I think we have a potential
breakthrough in integrative medicine. And I want to give a shout out to my colleagues
at the University of California San Diego, the Krupps Institute. They're the ones that
came up with this idea of vaccine extension, because so many people are concerned about
how many vaccines do I take and what happens when you take so many vaccines. So the idea of having your innate immune system at a state of readiness
so vaccines work better and you have to use them less. That's the holy grail of vaccinology.
And what does this, but that's back to my original question, what does it do for people
that don't want to take vaccines? Can can it can it help their immune system fight
off things? We know and I have to be very careful how I say this but we know that these these mycelium
based products of agaric and turkey tail support the immune system. This is clear. Now the immune
system has many challenges from bacterial infections, viral infections, cancer, you know, just cells getting old and dying, not having
apoptosis. Apoptosis is important for you to get rid of your disease and aging
and dead cells. So it's a very, very broad landscape. So I'm not trying to be, I'm
not dancing around the definitions, but I am very
much restricted on what I'm able to say.
I understand what you're saying. Yeah.
I can say that these agaric and turketail supports the immune system. We have very good
evidence for that. I can say that in combination, based on the earlier evidence and we need more studies but this is a placebo
double blind controlled study we can show that we reduce the adverse effects of the mRNA vaccines
with this population that we've studied of 90 people those who did not take agaric and
turkey tail had adverse consequences significantly less than those people who took agaric on Turkey Hill did
not have adverse.
So it helps people not avoid vaccines because of their vaccine hesitancy.
I have a dear friend and their family is very conservative Christians and they just refuse
to get vaccinations.
They isolated themselves.
And at first I was on the other side of the fence being, wait a second, why aren't you getting vaccines?
I've come to understand why they didn't want vaccines.
I totally respect their opinion and what they did.
But they're very interested, and many people are,
in not needing a vaccine.
How can I build innate immunity?
When it comes to the pandemic storms, the viral pandemics that we face, we are in
unprecedented times. What happens when we get multiple viral variants, not only from
flu viruses, but from other viruses, because of loss of biodiversity, because of factory farming, it spread so rapidly,
we are at the convergence of possibly multiple virus and viral pandemics converging at the
same time. That is not improbable at all. So it's really we need to get our act
together and everyone needs to work together. And what we think that we have in many other
physicians who are knowledgeable about the subject, who've studied this very carefully,
who've looked at the data, are excited about it, because it can help innate immunity. So
whether we get a vaccine or don't get a vaccine, your immune system is supported
at a higher level of readiness.
So when you started doing this, and you said there's 107 strains you guys have identified
and isolated, what are the differences in those strains?
Are some more potent than others or some have different effects? Excellent question.
With the BioShield program, I think I submitted six strains of Agarocon.
Only three showed any activity in the BioShield program.
So three showed nothing?
Three showed nothing.
Two of them were active against flu viruses and one of them was active against pox viruses. Now, that's weird because pox
viruses are DNA viruses, flu viruses are RNA viruses, and so you think the modality would
be different. But it just speaks to the fact how little we know. I met a Nobel laureate
in San Diego who got the Nobel Prize in immunology. I'm not going to mention his name, but he
gave a great
quote. He goes, I can't believe I got the Nobel Prize because I know shit about
the immune system. And here's the Nobel laureate. He just said, it is so incredibly
complex every time we think we understand it. That we're challenged with
new ideas that are contrary to our assumptions. So it's really important to keep an
open mind.
The beauty of agaric on a turkey tail is a multi-thousand year history of use. Traditional
Chinese medicine has been advocating this for literally 2,000 years. Long history in
Europe, long history in North America with indigenous First Nations. So this is, I mean,
I think, so let me really put this in the context.
Alexander Fleming, most people know this story, in 1929, he got a mold and his petri dish
was growing staph bacteria. And there was a zone of inhibition and the bacteria stopped
growing. So he looked at that margin of no growth and he thought, well, that mold is
excreting something. It turned out to be penicillin.
So he published that. And there's a massive number of researchers all over the world,
especially in London and Europe, started isolating molds to see if they could find a highly potent
strain that produced penicillin. But they couldn't industrialize it. And in the Netherlands,
the Imperial College, they did a lot of work, but they couldn't industrialize it. And in the Netherlands, the Imperial College, they did a lot of work, but they couldn't
scale up the production of penicillin during World War II until a lab researcher by the
name of Mary Hunt, working in Peoria, Illinois, at a USDA laboratory, went to a farmer's market
and found a moldy cantaloupe.
The moldy cantaloupe was covered with a golden mold.
And so Alexander Fleming discovered penicillium notatum.
She discovered that penicillium chrysogenum,
chrysogenum means the golden color.
And then she isolated that mold
and it turned out to produce six times more penicillin,
at least of any other strain here that we discovered.
And the advantage that we had in the United States is that we had corn-steep liquor.
We grow corn.
And a corn, you take corn cobs, you boil them in water, you can make corn-steep liquor,
and that turned out to be a perfect medium for the massive production of penicillin.
The Germans, they had a factory that was making penicillin. It got bombed, so they were kicked out of the race.
The Japanese developed it.
Penicillin literally saved hundreds of millions of dollars because of Mary Hunt's cantaloupe.
You mean lives.
Yeah.
Hundreds of millions of lives.
Sorry, I misspoke.
No worries.
Hundreds of millions of lives because of her mortic cantaloupe.
That's wild.
And just, I think, a garracon with 107 strains,
when we start sequencing them,
we've done whole genome sequencing on 95 strains so far,
whole genomic sequencing,
so we have the entire genomic fingerprint.
And to go back to your question,
we have found four or so different clades.
These are its little subgenera,
subgenomic associations, lineages, you might call them.
And in those lineages, we are just beginning to see early signal of what lineages have
greater potency as an anti-inflammatory and also for supporting the immune system.
So this is my biggest contribution to science, I hope, historically, will be because
of this library. And I've literally spent millions of dollars, I'm not exaggerating, millions of
dollars on a garracon to amass 107 strains, and we're accumulating more. We're going to publish this
in the Commons, in the large genomic library databases, so other people can see this.
And so you said there's four strains that you identified that were particularly effective?
Yeah, that was with the BioShield program.
And so...
So out of the 107, how many of them were viable?
Well, we didn't have 107 back then.
I only had six or seven strains back then at the BioShield program in 2004.
So in 2024 now we have 107. We only had one choice for the COVID-19 clinical study. So I
chose the strain of a garracon that was the most robust that we saw on our early in vitro tests with a bioshield program.
And now these 107 strains you have currently, how many of them have you tested?
Well in terms of how many we tested for immune support?
Yeah, for everything.
Clinically, only one.
Only one.
In vitro, I think seven or eight some of them are
not active we are currently involved with another university who is now
testing multiple strains in vitro and we have new signal now and I want to show
you how big these agaricons get. So, Jamie, if you could just... Before we go any further, when you identify ones that aren't active, do you bookmark them
and see if you can try them for other things that could be beneficial to the human body?
Or do you just only look at the immune system and do you always assume that they only have
one mechanism?
We... always assume that they only have one mechanism? We – the answer to that question, I'm a very small company.
I have 150 employees.
I own the whole company.
I have eight or nine full-time researchers.
There are so many applications potentially of this.
We have to be very narrowly focused on that which we can achieve.
So it's a resource issue.
That's a resource issue.
If I was a part of NIH and I've made NIH applications, you know, one
out of eight, you know, has made it through, but it's very, very difficult for an independent
researcher like me to advance the science without collaboration with larger entities.
So mostly universities.
It seems like if there's, if we're finding these benefits and these mushrooms, it seems
like it's to anybody, to everyone's benefit if there was some large-scale funding of some research
on this.
Because if you bookmark these ones that don't have efficacy towards a specific goal that
you have, is it possible that we would be missing out on some of the other additional
benefits of these mushrooms that we're not aware of, and these different strains?
As an immunologist on our team said, because inflammation is such the root cause of so
many illnesses, the fact that you can upregulate immunity and downregulate inflammation has
implications across the medical field.
Right, but they don't all show this ability, correct?
That's correct.
And the ones that don't show this ability, what I'm saying is, is it possible that they have other effects, beneficial
effects that we're not measuring because we're only looking for this?
Absolutely, of anti-fungal effects. The weird thing about a agaricon, from my
experience, is the only mushroom that grows on an old growth tree. All these
other trees I find, I find four, five, six, maybe ten different species, but when I
find agaricon, you know, this is an example.
This is my good friend, Scott Baker.
He climbed 100 feet up to this agaricon.
We got a tiny piece of tissue the size of your fingernail from the bottom of that.
And we got that in culture.
Four or five years later, a storm came through, broke off that tree.
That agaricon now is not there. So we saved
it. We've saved it from fires, Agaricon, we've saved from logging. I've actually had some
logger buddies of mine who know about this. This is the biggest one we've ever seen. And And this one is over 100 pounds, over 100 years of age.
And it is-
It's crazy, it looks like cement.
Those are annual growth rings.
Wow.
Basically, they're annual growth rings.
I have to say, this is my kind of guy.
He's known as Yosemite Sam,
and I do have permission to show this, so thank you.
He looks like Yosemite Sam.
But this guy, I mean, that is a massive agaricon, the biggest one I've ever seen.
That's insane.
So think about it.
They grow in the Old Growth Forest, subject to vast weather changes, wind and rain and
snow, and they live for 100 years and they don't rot.
What is about this fungus that allows it not to rot? So it seems
to have a host defense of protection innately. And since we're more closely related to fungi
than any other kingdom, the antibacterial antibiotics that we've gotten mostly have
come from fungi, but with very few antifungal antibiotics. And so research is also showing that these agaricons and other polypormutans are active
against pathogenic fungi.
So it's this interesting nexus point that agaricons in the center of antiviral, antibacterial,
and antifungal, and yet has such a long history of use and
safety.
So, we're really at the threshold.
This is where science can get ahead of itself and be so reductionist, but, you know, we
are whole systems of enormous complexity, and science tries to decomplexify and disambiguate
things so it's very narrowly focused so they have a stimulus response they can measure.
That's not the way the human immune system works.
You know, it's an entourage effect, a synergy,
and keeping that in balance is the key.
Now, there's between two and 20 million species of fungi.
About 10%, about 140,000 species to 200,000 species or so
are mushroom-forming fungi. We've only identified 14,000.
But there's another really curious phenomenon.
About 1% of mushrooms are poisonous.
About 1% of them are edible in choice.
About 1% of them are psychoactive, are psilocybin present. The other 97%
they're just, you know, they just don't taste good, they're not poisonous, they're
not of interest. But what do you think is going on with the Ammonita Mascaria?
The Ammonita Mascaria is one where there's this historic use, there's all
this mythology that's connected to
Santa Claus and shamans and elves and all these different things, but most of the
people that I know that have tried it have not been able to experience like
extreme psychoactive effects. I have consumed Amnesty of Miscaria and Amnida pantherina on multiple occasions.
And my Amnida Miscaria, but higher doses, it's a somniferous.
It can put you to sleep.
I get dull yellows and browns.
It's not a euphoric experience.
Dog yellows and browns?
What do you mean?
Dark, the colors are not bright.
You know, it's not like you're flying saucer in the background here. What? Dog yellows and browns? What do you mean? Dark. The colors are not bright, you know?
It's not like you're flying saucer in the background here.
Everything is very, very diminished in terms of the colorama.
You know, it tends to be muted colors.
Reds and browns, but not blues and fractals and things like that.
So you're talking about what you see that is a hallucination?
Are you talking about actual colors that you see that is a hallucination, are you talking about actual colors
that you see look differently?
Actually, colors that I look at are different.
So it changes the visual spectrum?
It changes the visual spectrum.
Now, aminida pantherina, see, aminida pantherina
has muscloal, muscarin, and ebutenic acid.
Actually, it had very little muscarin,
but the muscarinic symptoms caused you to salivate
and as you end up salivating and tearing and lactating, et cetera.
So these shamans in Siberia, by consuming the amniotic muscaria, they would remove the
muscarinic symptoms and then the urine because they biofiltered it through the body, it would be high in ebutenic acid and in musimil. And these are the, they can sense,
purifies it. So, I mean, this is a legend that's mixed up in fiction, in fact, in fables.
I will say, in the field of mycology, from my experience now, over 47 years studying this subject,
many of the folklore has been validated only lately by science.
So before people are super skeptic and think this has no relationship.
Well, with the Santa Claus myth, hmm, okay, the amni-mascarilla grows underneath, you
know, trees, tree, the fir trees, Christmas trees. There's the berserkers, and legend is that the berserkers are surrounded, you know, 10 to 1 by a very
powerful army. These Norwegian Scandinavians were going to be slaughtered the next day.
They made a giant pot of Ammonium Miscaria, you know, a brew, they drank it, and then at dawn, high as a kite,
on the enemy Miscaria, they took off all their clothes and they just became these mechanistic
warriors that attacked the other side, freaked them out, and they won the battle. So that
was how the word berserk came about, from the berserkers. They went berserk. And so
that's the origin of that.
And it is Ammonita Miscia that we're assuming they took? Ammonia muscaria, but Ammonia pantherina does not have muscarin
in it. So I ate Ammonia muscaria several times. I was with my friend and I
looked at him and he was foaming with bubbles all over his mouth. I said, dude
you look like you have rabies. He goes, you should see what you look like. So
we're both like... And so and it puts you to sleep the biggest concern about amylobacteria
is hypothermia by most of us experts because you can actually fall asleep in
the snow and then you could get hypothermia and die very people a few
people if any have ever died there's's one potential report. It has killed dogs, but there's a repetitive motion syndrome
that's very, very strange.
And I ate amnita pantherina as well.
And I don't think I told you this story
about my pantherina experience.
I don't wanna be redundant here,
but I had a heroic experience on amnita pantherina.
And that one was very... I had repetitive motion
syndrome. And I was living up in the mountains. I had freeze-dried Amneta pantherina. I knew it
didn't have muscarin. I'd eaten muscaria. I foamed a lot. It wasn't that much fun. So I knew pantherina
was four to five times more potent.
So I took the freeze-dried specimens from the herbarium from the college I was working at.
I was living in underneath a volcano up in Darrington, Washington, and I was with my friend
Dave and he had a smaller body weight. So we made an omelet, let's try pantherinum. And he trusted me, note to self, note to others.
And so we ate the pantherinum and an omelet
and I cut the omelet bigger for me
because I'm bigger body weight than him.
And we ate the mushrooms like at 10 o'clock in the morning,
you know, and an omelet, they were delicious.
And just across the river was the Squire Creek Campground.
And that's where the tourists come up and their Winnebago's and, you know, campers
and their families and stuff.
And we're long-haired hippies.
And I said, you know, just on the other side there, there's this hill that we can get
up on the hillside.
It's an incredible view of the valley, the snow-capped volcano, just a great vista.
Let's go there.
So we, for some reason, it's so close, but we drove my car like, you know,
a thousand feet to this campground,
went over the bridge, over this little river,
and we parked, you know, just on the outside
of the campground, right where all the campers are.
And so we walked past, you know,
all these tourists and their families,
and we went up on the hill,
and then we're sitting up on the hill and waiting for the mushrooms to come on in
like an hour. Nothing. No experience. Like, you know, what's going on? And this is
very typical, by the way. This is characteristic. Emity, muscaria, and
pantherina take a long time before the onset of first symptoms. And then we're
up on the hill and I'm looking out on the horizon, beautiful view and suddenly
what was that?
This sort of this wave came through our visual field, like this invisible wave.
And I said, did you feel that? And he goes, yeah, I felt that too. And like, whoa, we're feeling the same thing.
And then,
pfft, pfft.
And so our visual feels started getting distorted
and they start coming on so fast.
We're going, holy shit, we gotta get out of here.
You know, this is coming on too fast.
Let's go back home and be more intense.
So we walked back through and I have a Roli Flex camera,
35 millimeter, been a photographer all my life. And then we walked back through and I have a Roli Flex camera, 35mm, been a photographer
all my life and then we're walking through the backside of the campground and there's
all these kids and families and winnow bagels and camper vans and then I remember this one
winnow bagel, it was like the longest winnow bagel in the universe. Every time I was walking, it was a Winnebago of no end. I couldn't get past
this one Winnebago. I kept on walking, my friend. And then finally we got past this Winnebago. It
seemed like it took forever. And there's my car. And for some friggin reason, I locked the door.
And I have my keys.
And I looked at the keyhole, the door, and I looked at my keys.
I went, pfft, missed that one.
Did it again.
Missed that one.
Just pfft.
Me and my friend goes, everything okay, Paul?
He goes, everything's fine Paul? Because everything's fine.
Just give me some time.
And then, you know, after I don't know how many times,
magically, just by the fact that I tried so many times,
I think it just slipped into the lock and unlocked the door.
I said, okay, so I sit in the car,
and now I have to put it in the ignition.
And I'm going, boom, oh no, boom. My friend goes, maybe you shouldn't
drive. Yeah. Good advice. Maybe I shouldn't drive. So it is no way I couldn't, it was
getting more and more intense. We're not responsible to drive, you know, so absolutely the right
decision not to drive. So then I got out of the car and the camera was on my lap and then
I get out of my car and you know meanwhile a group of people started
gathering because we were there for a long time trying to get into the car
and then trying to and so these people got kind of curious and Dave goes you
know some people over there are kind of gathering Paul looking at us and I
didn't want to look at them.
And so I get out of the car and my camera falls and it hits the
ground. I go, Oh shit. Mike. I just dropped my really flex camera.
And then I picked up the camera and I'm going, wow,
I just dropped my really flex camera. I drop it again.
And I pick it up. I go, did I just drop my camera?
I dropped it again. Repetitive motion syndrome. I picked up that camera and dropped it dozens
and dozens of times. Oh my God. Meanwhile, the cluster of people got larger. Parents were
holding their children close to them saying, we don't know what's going on here, but it's getting
weird over there. So pretty soon, a very large group of these campers are all watching us, but
they keep keeping their distance. And I just repetitive motion syndrome of dropping and
dropping and dropping. And so finally, you know, we had the staccato pace, the timeline
of the day got broken up side, morning when we ate that I had evening that had early afternoon, then I had early, then I had early afternoon, then I had early morning,
then I had late afternoon, then I had evening.
The whole thread of time was disintegrated,
like, and scrambled.
And so then we walked, and I lost Dave.
Dave, I figured, Dave, you're on your own, buddy.
I got enough to work here, deal with here.
And so we walked over, then we walked over this bridge, and we got to my place, and I got to to work here, deal with here. And so we walked over, then we walked over this bridge
and we got to my place and I got to my house
and I had a combination lock on the door.
Oh my God.
Last thing I need is another.
So I spun that combination lock and I couldn't get it open.
And then I went into convulsions and they felt good.
So I'm convulsing on the ground and spiking like this.
And every time I convulsed, right afterwards,
it actually felt good. And so like, you know, I'm convulsing, but it seems to be helping me. So I
convulsed and, you know, thrashing on the ground, don't know where it happened the day. And so I
go back to the lock and I spun it, and it's magically the lock opened up, and then I fell into bed. And then I had this amazing rush of Einsteinian thoughts.
The thoughts were just so profound. I go, oh my gosh, if I could write these down, these
are just like so important, you know, conclusions of great mysteries of the universe. I have
this at my hand. And just before I came to the object of the sentence, I would have a prepositional or
adverbial phrase, and then I'd get a tangent.
And I saw death then as being perpetual tangents that never gave you the satisfaction of having
completed thought.
So I went down this rabbit hole of constantly forks in my thinking. And then I blacked out.
And then at the end of the day, the sunlight came through.
The 12-hour experience is the long experience.
And so there's no summertime.
And then at the very end of the day, the sunlight came through,
flickered through my eyelids, and I woke up.
And my friend was convinced I was trying to
kill him because I was a mushroom expert so I had no idea this would be this
intense. Where was he during this time? He ended up in the cabin and safe
but he was like like a statue you know he's just there sitting when I got up, just looking straight
forward. And we spoke a few words the next day and for the next few days and then, you
know, Dave went on his life journey. I think he's convinced to this day that I knew what
would happen. But this speaks to the berserkers, the idea of repetitive motion syndrome.
Andy Weil, who you've had on this show,
he was at Cougar Hot Springs,
and he was going to the trail to Cougar Hot Springs,
and somebody ran down the trail, said,
we need a doctor, we need a doctor,
this person up there's trying to kill himself.
And Andy's a doctor, so he goes up there,
and there's this big hippie guy,
and he's on this log, or on the bridge,
swinging his legs wildly, covered with blood.
And before Andy's eyes,
this guy throws himself off the bridge,
right onto the rocks in the creek down below,
10 feet or more below, smashes himself and gets stunned
and looks around and walks back up
and gets on the bridge again
and throws himself off the bridge. So this is why if someone had killed somebody on Amnesty to Miscari or Pantharina,
I would testify as an expert witness they're out of control. They have no control of their
repetitive motion syndrome. If you read, watched Tales from the Crypt or witnessed something
violent because when you re-remember, you re-enact.
There's no control of your memory and your action.
So pharmacologically, that must be really interesting.
You know, neuroscientists have been studying this for a long time.
We can't quite figure it out.
But I think this underscores the point that mushrooms are chemical wizards.
They have enormous potential for exotic molecules
that interface with human health.
And there's a huge pharmacopeia, mycopharmacopeia,
inside of mushrooms that have not been fully explored.
I think it's true with the garracon.
I think it's true with the psilocybin mushrooms.
Certainly true with the amnidin muscaria, et cetera.
So ironically, amnidotic muscaria is legal.
There's no restrictions, you can possess 100 pounds of it. But you
can't possess a tenth of a gram of psilocybin mushrooms without
breaking federal law, Schedule I. So how can a mushroom that makes
you happier, less violent, you know, resolve your PTSD, depression, etc. How could
that mushroom remain illegal, and yet Amelida muscaria and pantherina are legal? So it's
just the juxtaposition. But for the record, no species should be illegal. It's the hubris
of humans to think that we can dictate that a species is illegal. That is
fundamentally wrong.
Agreed. My question was about the aminida miscaria. Because you're talking about a
garricon and how many different strains there are and how different strains are effective
at different things, one of the things that McKenna believed was that, because he had
never really had a positive experience with the amin miscaria but there was so much attached to it he thinks that it was probably
variably variable genetically seasonally variable just so much like a
garrick on there's probably many different strains of emanita so these
ones that they were attributing to like the sacred mushroom in the cross John
Marco Allegro's book on
Amanita Mascaria and the Bible. Do you think that it's possible that at one point in time
there was psychoactive strains of Amanita Mascaria that vary from the ones that people
have that have these different sort of more mundane effects?
Absolutely. We call them phenotypes. You can call them strains or phenotypes. It's a variety within a species.
But pharmacologically we already see that with the psilocybin mushrooms.
Some of them are really high in psilocybin, very low in psilocin. High in beta-cystin, nor-beta-cystin, nor-silocin, lower.
So we see this not only cross species-wise, but inside of a species with the phenotypes.
Some phenotypes of psilocybin covences are extremely potent, and other ones are not.
So strains do matter.
And this is why with agaricon, I think strains do matter.
The fact that we found one strain of agaricon that supports immunity and looks like it helps
extend the efficacy of vaccines is a home run.
What are the other strains capable of doing?
Right, that's what I was getting at. It's like, God, we seem so underfunded with something that
has so much potential. I'm funding it, you know. I'm glad you are. So I spend the enormous amounts
of my financial resources on research. That's why I created my company, you know, I started my company packing boxes by myself.
You know, I'm not ashamed to admit that I laid in bed crying many, many nights.
I was bouncing checks.
My suppliers were shutting me down.
No one was there to help me.
I was by myself.
I packed 30,000 boxes before I had a single employee.
I got accepted to five graduate schools and I couldn't afford to go.
Cause I didn't have a scholarship.
I had a young family.
Why my daughter, I was very adept at catching my daughter from her
backpack as I leaned over in a pack of box cellophane tape will not stick
at 35 degrees.
I can tell you that.
And I actually, I mean, I don't want to
flood the airways, but if you call us 360-426-8255, you'll get the public utility district. Why
I know that number ingrained is my lawyer said, if you call the utility company and
telling them you're sending a check, they legally cannot shut off your power. So I thought, okay, for 10 years, at
8.01 in the morning on the date of disconnection, I would call the public utility district to
say I'm sending in a check. And after a while, I heard this noise. And then many years later,
I met some of the people because you know, you're a legend. I go, what do you mean? He
says, we all gathered around the phone at 8.01
on disconnection day,
betting that Stamets would or would not call.
And everybody who bet that I would not call
lost their bets.
And at the end, everyone would just cheer,
it's Paul.
And I'd hear, I think they're having a party
in the background.
No, it's Paul calling at 8.01.
So I maximize my cashflow.
And thankfully I had a
local bank and the local bank, one of the board of members said, how much money do these
pay in overdraft fees? And there's an extraordinary number of, you know, $5,000. And he goes,
he's one of your best customers, man. They should keep them. So I built this business
Blood Sweat and Tears. Now I I have 150 employees I own the whole company
I'm very grateful to them. It's we call it a
Starship FP that's like your comedy clubs the mothership. Mm-hmm, right? So our company is known as Starship fungi perfect
I and
People want to track us down where at fungi comm a few NGI comm I registered that myself for 28 bucks nice
When did you get that? What year?
1992.
Oh yeah. You were early. You had to be super early to get that.
It's funny, people don't want to write it down. I go, it's a kingdom. You don't have
to write it down. It's fungi.com.
That's amazing that you got that domain. I use your stuff. I've had your stuff at my
house for a long time. I think it's great. I'm so happy that you're out there. I've had your stuff at my house for a long time. I think it's great. And I'm so happy that you're out there. I really am. I'm happy that, I mean, there's not a lot of
pulse damage in the world.
There are a lot of unsung heroes. I have a lot of attention.
I'm sure you're so humble. But my point is that it's like we really need research in
this stuff.
We need a lot of research. And the research is becoming increasingly credible. It's at
the University of Arizona Medical School, Andy Weill Center for Integrative Medicine,
University of California San Diego, UCLA, Harvard actually, and other institutions.
They're very excited now because this has been sort of like weird science, you know?
Yeah, that's what I was going to get at.
I was going to say there's this real reluctance to believe that people in the past had answers
that we don't have today. This is this almost religious belief in modern science and
also this belief that the
transition of knowledge has been fully complete from ancient people to today and there's nothing has slipped through the net.
That doesn't seem to be the case.
And also, for sure, they didn't have the ability to document things, at least, and preserve
those documents to today, like we can today, in regards to research, in regards to what
you could find out in the modern laboratories, and just what you're able to do to find out
which of these mycelium strains are effective, which of them are not, at least for the particular thing you're looking for.
Like all this, you've got to assume at one point in time, people had some sort of knowledge
about this stuff that we just have lost.
We had to.
We were so dependent upon the environment.
We know what plants are edible from the experiences of our ancestors who ate them before us.
And it doesn't discredit modern medicine
to say that these people had this extraordinary
understanding of what was beneficial.
Absolutely, and this is where the hubris of science,
we should be very careful, because the importance
of biodiversity cannot be overstated.
Biodiversity. Hubris anywhere.
Yeah.
It's...
Hubris anywhere.
Every single place it shows its head, it fucks it up.
In everything.
Even in martial arts.
Guys that think that they can't lose go in and get fucked up.
It happens all the time.
Hubris is terrible.
It's just a...
It's the human ego trying to keep itself from being, like, just to recognize its true place,
which is just part of an infinite sea of things that are happening simultaneously.
And you're not really that important.
You are important, but everything is important.
And you're not more important than anything.
It's all together.
I totally agree.
And it seems to be, unfortunately, lopsided in favor of the Y chromosome. Yeah, he was in the Y chromosome
Yeah, we're the fault of it all that's true. That's 100% true, but that's also why we invent everything
It's just like we we're a bizarre subset of the the humans that causes so much chaos and so much good at the same time
Well, I have great hope for the future. I do too.
I think that...
Sometimes.
Some days I do.
Today is a good day.
Today, maybe because you're here.
Maybe you have good hope.
I mean, thank goodness that we live in these times that we do with all the problems that
we face.
Look at the medical advances that we've made.
I'm getting hip surgery in two weeks.
I can barely walk.
Yeah, we were just talking about that.
You also are a martial artist and all the years of throwing kicks, you've worn one of
your hips out.
I have quite a few friends who've had that done.
My friend John Wayne Parr, who's still active, he's got a fight coming up soon.
He had a hip replacement and fought after the hip replacement at least once.
I think he fought twice.
My surgeon said, besides cataract surgery, the best medical innovation has the greatest difference
in patients before and after surgery than hip surgery.
Yeah, well, I told you about Graham Hancock.
Yeah.
He had his done, and then six weeks later,
he's walking around here.
My mom just had her knee done, and she's fine.
It's great.
I was so nervous about it.
I just didn't want her to do it.
I wanted her to get stem cells.
I wanted her to try to treat it and just
the biggest concern we have is MRSA, you know, that's a big one.
It's terrifying. That's terrifying.
Yeah. But I know quite a few people have gotten that as well. Yeah. So jujitsu is a breeding ground for that
shit. You get scratches and scrapes and then they get infected. It happens all the time,
specifically just staff specifically. But MRSA exists to and it will quite a few people back today
We always would we wiping up the mats of blood I mean now now you can't you can't have blood
You know in the dojo or the dojang you know yeah, it's considered to be a health hazard
So it's so much more restricted now perhaps not in the mix more shorts that you're involved
Well the thing about the grappling is just the scrapes.
You're constantly getting scraped up.
You can kickbox in spats and rash guards,
and you're probably going to mitigate a lot of the scratches
and scrapes with gloves on and foot gear and all that jazz.
But if you're grappling, you're constantly grinding things
on those mats.
And you're getting scratches from fingernails mats and you're getting scratches from fingernails
and you're getting accidental collisions
that cause little cuts and abrasions and they get infected.
And people that don't, like my friend Ari,
he had no idea he had staph.
I gave him a year of jujitsu for Christmas
and he and I were at the pool hall
and this still scares me to this
day because I think he came close to dying. He was walking around with a limp
and I go, I go, what's wrong with your leg? And he goes, I got bit by spider bite.
I go, let me see it. He pulls his knee up, he's got a massive staph infection on his
knee. I go, dude, that's staph. I go, we got to go to the hospital right now. He goes,
are you serious? I go, right now. And I broke my cue down. I go, we got to the hospital right now. He goes are you serious? I go right now and I broke my cue down I go we got to go right now. You have to go to the hospital man
You have a bad staph infection and he was fucked up for a while from it. He got through it the antibiotics worked
Thankfully, it wasn't MRSA. It wasn't medication resistant staph infections and it was just horrific
You know this speaks to it. I got an innate immunity
You know if you're in and nature's a numbers game.
You know, you have different coefficient variables on one side of the equation, the other side
of the equation is health or disease.
And so how can you stack that to your favor?
Right.
You have to be robust.
You have to eat well, you have to take vitamins, you have to get exercise, and you know, it
seems like mushrooms can help you quite a bit.
I'm a big fan of lion's mane.
I take lion's mane every day. That's one of the big ones that I take. But I wanted to
ask you this, like are there better ones to take? Is tincture better than
capsules? Is capsules better than tincture? These are good questions. The extracts allow
you to activate directly through the mucosa, so it gets into your bloodstream. But for
instance, Turkey Tail, lion's mane,
and agaricon are very good as prebiotics
for the microflora in your stomach.
Double-blind placebo-controlled study,
again, go to mushroomreferences.com,
with amoxicillin patients, where their microbiome
and their guts destroyed because of this potent
antibacterial antibiotic.
And so they found when they gave turkey tail mushroom mycelium, again double blind and
placebo controlled, and they looked at the microbiome, those who took turkey tail mycelium
recovering with amoxicillin end up upregulating beneficial bacteria and down regulating staph and
clostridium etc. Lactobacillus acidophilus and ambifidobacterium were
upregulated. These are beneficial bacteria. So there's an example that also
if you orally ingest then you could set up the microbiome to a higher state of readiness to help whole
stasis health, and then you absorb the components directly in.
So again, it depends on what your target is.
If it's general immunity support, then the oral ingestion.
If you're concerned about the port of entry, like of a pathogen through the mucosa, then the oral ingestion. If you're concerned about the port of entry, you know,
like of a pathogen through the mucosa, then obviously, you know, oral introduction, in
so far as it supports immunity, can stave off the entry point of those pathogens.
So would you recommend both a tincture and capsules? So the tincture would stave it off at the source?
I cannot respond to anyone using the question recommend.
I can say what I personally do is a combination of both.
Again, nature's a numbers game.
I'll just ask you that from now on.
What are you doing?
So, you know, I don't want to get you trapped in these conundrums.
Yeah, it's...
So you take both tincture form and capsule form?
Yeah, I take a throat spray, which has a Garakon and turkey tail in it. I love it. That's what I
use all the time when I go to concerts and crowds, etc. In the morning, I'm taking Lion's Mane
Turkey Tail and a Garakon. I'm 68, I know. You look great. time like hubris my partner is a medical doctor and
Every time that I feel like I feel like I'm 30. I don't feel my age at all the next day
I fall off a ladder you have 12 feet
Again hubris BAM, so I have to be careful what I say now hubris is real
It is as I think nature has a sense of humor
to whack you up on the side of the head to teach you a lesson.
The universe has a sense of humor.
Yeah, there's certain aspects to it
that almost seem like it's playing very subtle jokes.
We're at the beginning of just understanding
the importance of the biodiversity of the ecosystems
that's given us birth.
Right.
This is really, it's a continuum.
But I'm really excited about the innovations of what's happening with psilocybin, and psilocybin
in Lion's Mane in particular is something I'm very excited about, neurogenesis, neurogeneration, neuroplasticity, neuroregeneration, four different
things. But they all segue into this concept of the neurological systems being improved
using components within mushrooms. And that's something that I think has a lot of potential
for us, especially as we age.
It really is interesting how, as we get old and as the science of all these things advances,
we realize how shallow it really was just a few decades ago and how little we knew about
the effects of these things.
And just various, including vitamins and minerals and all the different supplements that people
take that have shown to be beneficial.
It's like this is a very recent thing in terms of human history, of our current understanding,
like our scientific understanding of mechanism of vitamins.
Yep.
I'm keen on it.
You know, it's the absence of vitamins
that you see the deleterious effects.
So it's like, you know, research by absence,
you know, vitamin C, scurvy, et cetera.
But I'm very keen on stacking, you know, in microdosing. That's something that we've had a lot of activity. And I'd like to give you a huge
thank you. And this is very sincere to you and to the JRE audience. And Jamie, can we put up that signed the Nature
article on microdosing?
Jamie Dillion
No worries.
And basically, when I was here last, we were talking about microdosing and I came up with a stack of Lion's mane and
a microdose of psilocybin below the threshold of feeling it and niacin
nicotinic acid which is a flushing form and we did a call out for people to join
and download an app at microdose.me.
It's for iPhones and George so they could measure
before and after effects of microdosing.
And what we found and we published this,
this is the first article that we published.
And this was in 2019, I believe, or 2000, 2021. This is another motivations.
If we go to the next article, well, we can stop here for a second.
But just look at the title here. Adults who microdose psychedelics report health-related
motivations and lower levels of anxiety and depression compared to non-microdosers.
What does that mean, health-related motivations?
Why are you microdosing?
Because you don't feel creative, because you're depressed,
because you have anxiety.
This is the extraordinary metric,
and this is something you may not realize.
The majority of this came from your audience,
this audience right now.
But if you look at that, 4,600 non-microdosers and only 4,000 microdosers.
Joe, do you have any idea?
We have more citizen scientists who are non-microdosers who jumped into this app.
This is why the editors at Nature like this study because it was called So Well-Weighted.
So Well-Weighted because the non-microdosers
exceeded in this case, fairly comparable,
but 4,653 non-microdosers who downloaded
the microdose.me app to measure performance
and how they felt.
And Jamie, if we could go to the next one. the app to measure performance and how they felt.
And Jamie, if we could go to the next one.
Let's be clear here.
They're non-microdosers, but they microdosed for the study.
No.
No.
They didn't.
All they did is got these challenge tests, memory tests.
So they took the app, they downloaded the app, but they didn't do anything to their
consciousness.
They didn't do any microdosing at all.
And this is why they were...
And then...
Why do you think so many of them that don't microdose signed up for that?
We have no frigging clue.
You tell us.
Wow.
I think it may have been citizen scientists who wanted to get a baseline first, and then...
Have you considered people lying because they don't want you to know that they microdose. It's anonymous, you know
Yeah, we're scared the next one if you would with a correction psilocybin microdoses demonstrate greater observed
Improvements in mood and mental health at one month relative to non microdosing controls. We had it
Why do they have to make well, let me show the next slide with a graph
If you can see it.
The reason why is that there was a typo in the original article.
And it's the one with a bar graph, if you can see it.
And no worries.
How long have you had this company, Host Defense?
I've started that Host Defense brand about 2004 is when I started.
I see them everywhere now.
I see them in health food stores and shit.
We're the number one mushroom-based immune product line.
Get excited for you.
Yeah, I see them.
Go, Paul.
Go, Paul, go.
Okay, this is, yeah, we'll just go.
This is the app.
We can go through the four slides here.
That'll be great.
So this is the app, microdose.me. I encourage everyone listening to help us because now the app has been improved.
It was a little bit laborious before. We want to go out to three months. We want non-microdosers
and microdosers, but please, the non-microdosers, we need your input. These are challenge tests and they're...
So these are acuity tasks that are on the actual app itself?
Yes.
Vision, hearing, memory.
There is how do you feel, et cetera.
So...
Can I ask you before I forget?
Yep.
Who was the scientist that ran those studies a long time ago where they showed that psilocybin
in low doses increased edge detection, increased your ability to see whether two parallel lines,
one of them had gone off a parallel.
I do know of the reference.
I do not remember.
Foreign scientists, German.
Yeah.
I don't, yeah.
You have a good memory, but better than mine. I don't remember the name of the
scientists.
This is a long time ago, right?
Long time ago, yeah. This is probably in the 60s or something like that.
So, these tasks, have they demonstrated that the people that are taking the microdose have better results in these?
Absolutely.
Are you filtering out for, you know, healthy user bias, IQs, occupations?
We have, there is, it takes five minutes to enter into the data set to create your profile.
It's anonymous. You own your data.
It's gone through an institution
of review boards at the University of British Columbia. It's all been carefully vetted.
You own your data. Nobody else gets to see what you've done or your frequency. It asks
you your age, actually your income, your nationality or your...
Did it ask you your occupation?
Did not ask occupation.
Education?
Education, yes.
Whether you have a college degree, high school or whatever.
So we have a tremendous, I mean we have literally millions and millions of data points.
The data field is so robust and now we're trying to narrow it to confirm what we saw
in the first studies. Microdosing is associated with a
massive relief of depression, a relief of anxiety, an increase in mood, and now we
have customized it for more, not so much subjective effects, but cognitive
demonstrable skill improvement. Because of course, when people feel better,
if you feel better, some people can say
that's expectancy or a placebo.
It's ironic because it's like a patient coming
into a doctor saying, I feel better.
And they go, no, you don't.
You can't feel better.
It's a placebo.
But doctors use expectancy all the time.
Every time you go to a doctor,
you expect they're gonna have a medicine and good medical advice. You want a kind and
caring physician. Every time you go to a five or four star restaurant, you expect
the food's gonna be good. So you can't, we're humans, we're complex. You can't
divorce one's motivation for getting a treatment away from the expectancy of
that on that treatment. So does the expectancy enhance the medicine? That's the question.
If people are not depressed and not less prone to suicide and you save them from suicide,
isn't that what physicians want to do? They want to help their patients to be better.
So the stacking results though is what we found to be most surprising and most extraordinary.
Can I ask you this?
Do you measure, do you ask the people to go through the visual acuity or the different
tasks sober first to get a baseline and then see if there's improvement from microdosing?
Or do you just show that the group that microdoses has higher levels of proficiency?
You know, I don't think we asked them the question if they're sober at the time they take the test.
But not even sober because we're talking about microdosing. But did you ask them?
They use marijuana.
No, but does it measure the difference between them before microdosing and them after microdosing?
Yes, it does.
It does.
So you had a baseline.
So before you ever microdose, I'd like you to take these tasks and do these puzzles and
whatever.
What kind of things do you have?
Visuals?
We have visual, we have cognitive tests, we have acuity tests, we have hearing.
Hearing?
Yeah, hearing.
Interesting.
Are you using headphones?
Are you using the speaker off the phone?
There are tones off the phone. So you'd be able to hear things as an auditory challenge.
Is it dependent upon the volume of the phone?
You're asking really, really good questions because the type of phone, the type of speaker,
whether it's iPhone 12 or iPhone 15.
The newer phones have much better speakers. Yeah, it gets much more complicated than the other tests.
And so we have a, it's narrowed down.
What we really want is people to go for three months.
So the signal that we got in 30 days was extremely strong.
But we need to be able to repeat the results to confirm.
And then we want to extend the microdosing
window of testing to three months. Now people only need to once they get their
baseline they only need to report once every two weeks or once a month. So it's
a much less burdensome for the people joining microdose.me to perform the
task. They can see their results compared to the average.
So there's a dashboard that's present so they can see where they are relative to the average.
And eventually they will have access to all their own data. But it's all anonymized,
it's all protected. It's on servers in British Columbia. So it's all, you know, tightly controlled so the anonymity
is assured.
Jamie, are you able to find that chart?
Well, I don't know.
Let's go back to the next slide if you could.
Next one.
Next one.
It's the finger tapping test.
This is what I want to focus on.
This is why there was an author
correction. The p-value of significance here is.004. That means there's one chance in
250 that this is a random result. This was published in Nature, Scientific Reports, went
through peer review. We didn't see any increase. The tap test is how often you can tap your two fingers together
in 10 seconds. For those of you who have traumatic brain injury, you probably know a number of
these people, traditionally they do a tap test. Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's,
they do tap tests. Unfortunately, there's a steady decline. But theAP tests have been validated, and just another article came out this past week
saying that handheld devices are validated medically now for patient reports.
So this is the chart that blew all of us away, is that the green line is people taking the
Stamens stack, which is psilocybin cabensis, approximately
one-tenth of a dry gram, 500 milligrams of Lion's Mane mycelium, and 50 milligrams of
flushing niacin.
Those three together.
Now, the non-microdosers, you can see over 30 days, no significant increase in the tap
testing.
Microdosers only with psilocybin, the blue line. Psilocybin
only, not statistically significant. But those people who were taking the stack went from
tapping 48 taps in 10 seconds to 68 taps in one month.
Wow.
Think about that. Think if you're on a computer, you're a guitar player, you're a drummer.
Think about walking to the bathroom and not falling.
Think about this is not subjective.
This is an affirmation of an improvement in cycle motor performance.
Now, here you'll ask me the question again.
Yeah, athletic performance.
How does this work?
We don't know how it works.
We just know that it does work. So we want to extend this out to 90 days. We want to see maybe the microdoses with
psilocybin blue only, maybe that starts to uptick, maybe it's delayed and then it increases.
Maybe this green line with the stem and stalk, maybe it ameliorates and softens, or maybe it accelerates.
But I looked this up, and for you to do the tap test involves six regions of your brain.
You look at your fingers, you ideate, you look at your fingers, you start your psychomotor
cadence, you get a feedback from touching the table,
and that feeds you back,
and then you develop a rhythm.
And so we let people tap test for several days
so they go up the learning curve,
so we don't include them for several days,
and then people that get like practice,
but then we see this result.
So I think we're onto something really exciting here.
With that value of P is 0.004, one chance in 250.
It's very hard.
I mean, you can't say it's expectancy.
You can't say it's placebo.
It's a performance skill that's being demonstrated.
So now I chose niacin because psilocybin is a vasoconstrictor, niacin is a vasodilator.
I chose the flushing form of niacin because you tingle.
And I thought, wow, if we give the neurogenic benefits of psilocybin, let's get it to the
endpoints of the peripheral nervous system.
Neuropathies oftentimes present themselves at the deadening of the fingertips and the
toes.
So with vasodilation, you get more blood flow to where the neuropathy is occurring.
And then lion's mane, well demonstrated, again, mushroomreferences.com, you can do many, many
references up, showing that lion's mane mycelium contains these compounds called erinacines
that helps rebuild myelin on the accents of nerves to enable signal transmission and also
stimulates NGFs nerve growth factors for the proliferation and the extension of
the neurites to further crawl. So I stacked those three together and again I
am a co-author in the paper. I had no access to this data. In fact they called
me up says we see a signal, we don't believe
it. We're taking the dataset back, and they attacked it three different ways with separate
statistical methods, and the data held true. And so we know there's an increase in psychomotor
performance. So there's a lot of musicians now that are very keen on taking the stock.
Yeah, it makes sense.
And they're saying their banjo playing is better. Think if you're even playing the
guitar or teaching piano all your life, you're dependent upon this digital dexterity. To
be able to have your acumen and your digital dexterity as you age helps you pass down knowledge
to the next generation. I mean, this is really exciting.
We need to disambiguate it.
We need a big data set.
And I'm calling out to Joe Rogan experience listeners,
especially you non-microdosers, we need you.
And then we need everyone to go at least three months,
at least populate the baseline,
check in month one, month two and month three,
we need to see if this data holds up.
Because I was actually surprised.
I thought psilocybin microdosing by itself
would have had greater liftoff
on the psychomotor performance than we saw.
I suspect it will have liftoff more so
when we go to the month two or three,
but we don't know, let the data and the science lead.
But the fact that we got the signal
Again, how does it work? Why does it work?
Where does it work?
Folks it works, right?
You get you don't see a force for the trees because you're so conflicted and trying to understand the mechanism of action
But I'd like to see it applied to other tests
Have you ever seen those tests that they do where they have like an
Electronic wall and there's lights and the light when it goes off you're supposed to tap it Yeah, and so there's a bunch of them like a lot of boxers use them
They use them to heighten their reaction time. We have that on the app also. Oh, no flowers flowers
Yeah, tap tap tap tap tap tap. Yeah, and you have to do it again
But the thing about the the one that you have to touch is you have to actually move your body.
Right.
So you're moving your arms, you're reaching down, you're going up, and they're all in
front of you and you never know which one's going to light up.
This is just the beginning.
That type of model that you just described, to me it would be much more informative than
the tap tusks.
Have you seen it?
You know what I'm talking about, right Jamie?
See if you can find a video of those so you can show it to them.
But I always wondered, like, why are these guys doing that?
Is that really help fight?
Does that help fight performance?
I'm not sure.
I think sometimes trainers get caught up in technology and they have you doing certain
things.
I think your time is probably best spent using technique, but I don't know.
Is there a reason why that, lights going off off would somehow or another make you move better?
Well, see, look how these things work.
I mean, what does that do into your mind that is so beneficial?
That person is an exceptional performer. That's an That guy's on a dose right now.
He's on the Stamets stack.
Oh, this girl's using her feet.
Look at this.
Interesting.
Be faster.
But does it actually make you faster?
I think it would.
Yeah.
I think to a point, you know, everybody plateaus when they practice, you know, and they end
up practicing to hitting 90% of the optimum
of their performance.
And then they hit sort of a new baseline.
And it's hard to get above that.
Right.
We hit that ceiling.
How do you break through that ceiling?
Right.
This, I think, is an opportunity to break
through that ceiling.
And it would be really fascinating
to see if it could be applied to skills, you know, sports
and athletics, martial arts, things along those lines.
Like, it would be interesting to see. applied to skills, you know, sports and athletics, martial arts, things along those lines. It
would be interesting to see. Archery, it would be interesting to see if it increases people's
abilities.
There are so many stories of performance enhancement on low doses of psilocybin.
Yes.
We've all heard them. There's something there.
I've experienced it with pool.
The pool.
Yeah, the game becomes like 10% easier.
And see, this is why these observational studies
are important to medicine.
Clinical studies are based on early signals.
And the clinical studies are trying to refine,
reduce the variables to see a cause and effect.
But clinical studies are already started,
and it's not out of the blue.
They have to have a good theoretical basis.
Observational studies by tens of thousands of people create the signals.
So the data set we have is so big, we're going to try to use AI to say what else is hidden
in this data.
The reason why we went to the TAP test is that so many of our beneficial outcomes were or depression, anxiety, mood, these are all
subjective.
And so when I ask a physician, you know, what is an objective test that's not subjective?
She said, oh, we have the tap test, you know, so that's why this is a demonstration of something
that is happening that is performance related,
that's outside of subjectivity, expectancy, et cetera.
This is performance measurement, that's solid data.
And now, and think about this, Joe,
they're getting the solzheny mushrooms
in their underground market.
You know, we sell 50% of the lion's mane products
are out on the market,
but the other people are selling lion's mane products. They're getting variable amounts of niacin.
Those are all confounders that would reduce the significance of that data.
That means that this data could be understated if you standardize everything to a standardized
amount.
So, we don't know how to optimize it.
How far do you think we are from some sort of a legalization of psilocybin?
I think within five years.
I think it'll go from schedule one to schedule three after the election,
or schedule two for sure.
But psilocybin, I mean psilocybin...
Why do you think after the election specifically?
Because everyone's so worried about margins.
If you piss off 5% of the people, do you lose 5% of the vote?
Right.
No one wants to take a risk.
It makes it look like they're weak on crime
or something like that.
Yeah, it's something like that.
But see, this is the beauty of the psilocybin.
What I am very encouraged by is law enforcement.
I've met so many law enforcement officers.
Now, let's be real about this.
If you're a law enforcement
officer, you have 100 arrest encounters. Are you going to be perfect with a
hundred of them? No. If you're a veteran and you have a hundred expeditions, are
you going to be perfect with a hundred of them? No. Or if you're a doctor, are you
going to be perfect with a hundred of them? No. And you'll make a mistake.
Everyone has a really bad day.
Do you want that bad day to define the rest of your life as a skeleton in your closet
or a monkey on your back where you did something that's fundamentally wrong but you can't talk
about it?
And then you then act out against other people because you're in turmoil.
There are so many law enforcement people that have turned churches.
There's one called the Divine Assembly Church in Salt Lake City.
There's another church called the Church of Ambrosia in Oakland, more than 100,000 people.
They're cloaking themselves inside these churches for civil rights protection.
But when they get together with a community of other veterans and law enforcement officers
and they can share their grief, their sorrows, their mistakes and not be condemned for it,
we lack forgiveness in this society. We don't have enough people acknowledging their mistakes
without fear of retribution
and saying, I'm better than that one bad day.
That's not going to define my life.
And so what's happening in Canada and the United States to a degree is law enforcement
officers know that other officers are benefiting from this.
So they are deprioritizing psilocybin, decriminalizing it because they're benefiting from this. So they are deprioritizing psilocybin, decriminalizing it because they're
benefiting from it.
It's a big thing among soldiers.
It's a big thing among soldiers. I've met so many.
Many, many guys have had very, very beneficial experiences.
I believe humans are generally very good. They're motivated by goodness, but they get
hijacked because of a very bad
day or sequence of bad days because then that becomes an inflammatory pathway.
Well sure there's the stress of the job itself. If you're in law enforcement, every
day you could get shot. Every day you might not come home to your family. Every
person you pull over with tinted windows might blow you away before you get to the
window. Can you imagine walking up to a car with windows up, you know, of an unknown person and you have one second to two
seconds to make a life and death decision. I don't want that responsibility.
And you have PTSD. You're probably already wracked with anxiety. You probably already
experienced so many things that most people can never imagine. That
depression, anxiety, frustration creates an inflammatory
response that depresses the immune system that then can lead to diseases
such as cancer, vulnerability to viruses, you know, and the anger issues emanate
outwards. I am, all of us I think have been affected by fentanyl, you know,
in my county, Mason County, Washington, 17
people died in two weeks from fentanyl. Seventeen people, a small county. The fentanyl crisis
is killing some of the best of our youth.
It's terrifying.
It's terrifying.
It's terrifying because it's unprecedented. There's never been a time where so many people
are dying of overdoses, accidental overdoses from things that they...
And this should be the priority of law enforcement.
Does law enforcement want to be on the wrong side of history, busting somebody for psilocybin?
Well that's going to go on their resume, and 10, 15, 20 years, maybe five years from now,
it'd be like busting somebody for marijuana, where it's legal in so many states.
Right.
What do you think that the solution to the fentanyl crisis is?
Is it legalization?
I mean, that's a tough one, right?
Because legalization scares people because,
and I would agree with this, but for sure,
if hard drugs are legal, more people
are going to try them because they're more available.
They're going to.
But you will at least be trying the actual drug and not
getting like street Valium that has fentanyl in it or you have criminal syndicates, you
know?
Yes, that's the other part of it. That's the other part of it.
And they have basically addiction militias, militias of people who are addicts coming
to them to give them money. I'm not an expert on drug policy. There are other people that are.
I would first take the step that all natural products
containing any schedule one substance should be legal,
not illegal, psilocybin, masculine.
You can make the argument for LSD.
I think that that's the first step, is all natural products should be legalized.
Decriminalization, if you cannot get legalization, and then having decriminalization with therapy.
I think if we don't have legal constraints, just like speed limits on the highway.
Do you really want anyone to drive as fast as they can?
We do need limits.
We have to throttle this down so our structures are in place for us to be able to make the
best positive impact with the least amount of harm.
And that's the quagmire that we're in. Other
countries in the world, and Rick Dalbigh and Andy Well can speak on this
eloquently, as many other people, but I want to stay in my lane of mushrooms.
And I think there's over 200 species of psilocybin mushrooms, 162 species in the genus Psilocybe.
And just recently, I'm happy to say I have a new species named after me.
Mycologist honored me by naming a new psilocybin mushroom, Psilocybe stemetsii.
So I have this.
Oh, wow.
Is this a new one that they discovered?
They discovered in the rainforest in Ecuador.
It's very rare.
Please don't pick it.
But there's
no greater honor than mycology to have a species named after you. You never name it after yourself.
The field of medicine, you can do that with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, etc. But the
field of mycology and botany, you know, it's an honor that's bequeathed to you by other
sciences. So there are 162 species all over the world. There's been over 5,000 collections of psilocybin
mushrooms since the 1800s. So they are bridges across cultures, across centuries, I would
argue across millennia. And any peoples living in that ecosystem long enough would stumble
upon these psilocybin mushrooms, especially things like
slosavica benzes, which is a big golden mushroom that's associated with cows. You can't miss
it, right? You can see slosavica benzes folks 200 feet away driving 55 miles an hour. If
you're tuned in, you can see them in the fields. They're that glaringly obvious.
You pull over and pick them?
I can't help myself
What do you research for research of course your research you're an actual mycologist. Yeah
There goes one. What what is you? What's your take on?
Dennis McKenna's experience that he had in the Amazon where the reality sort of broke down for a couple weeks
Amazon where the reality sort of broke down for a couple weeks. Dennis is a dear friend of mine.
I love that guy.
And Terrence was a dear friend of mine.
Terrence and I were best buddies and I love them both.
My brother John died and he was my mentor and Terrence dying also.
I was with Terrence to the end.
As Terrence always said, Dennis is a real scientist. You know, I'm a psychonaut,
philosopher, you know. He's the best commander of the English language of anyone I've ever
met, you know, Terrence. And Dennis and Terrence, you know, I think have made, have been courageous
in their viewpoints of pushing the envelope. And this is where it's really important. Again, where
is the forgiveness in people? You don't always have to be right. The fact that you try and
you fail—
Are you talking about some Terrance's bizarre theories?
Bizarre theories. I mean—
Time wave zero.
Time wave zero is bullshit. I mean, I'm sorry. I challenged Terrance on this. He had time
wave zero—
Explain that to people that don't know what we're talking about.
Time Wave Zero is an algorithm of historic events
that steered the course of humanity,
as best I remember it, and Terence invented this.
But the problem with Time Wave Zero
that I pointed out to Terence,
he said the birth and death of Christ
was not a historically significant event.
I said, Terence, I know you're not
Christian, but you can't deny that the birth and death of Christ was not a historically
significant event. So it was not in time wave zero.
Well, he was skeptical of the existence of Christ as an individual.
But even if Christ did not exist, the event of that period would have been a significant
event. The crusades occurred, all the stuff
that happened consequentially.
Nat. Just even the creation of the Christian religion.
David. The creation of the Christian religion was a historically significant event that
ramified throughout history. So Terence, as time waved zero, did not recognize that, from
the best of my understanding. I talked to Terence about this a lot. And then he had
the end of time being the death on his birthday. How convenient. That's what I said. But then for Terrence's defense,
he had the best answer I could ever have thought of. Because I was saying, I'm vilifying Terrence,
this is bullshit, bullshit. And he goes, Paul, it's an ever-changing algorithm. I'll just keep
on adjusting it. And I thought, okay, that was a good answer.
It's a good answer, but so the algorithm is essentially based on taking historical events
that we know of that are fact and putting them into this database.
Into a string that would then predict other historical events that will occur in the future. 06.30 But you couldn't predict the specific event, you would just predict significant events.
06.30 That's my understanding. But I'm... This is...
06.30 But a big one was December 21, 2012, and nothing really happened.
06.30 But did something happen? Maybe we're not aware?
06.30 There are many things happening of which we're not aware.
06.. But is it
possible that a significant change in the world happened that we're not aware
of? Well I mean you're asking me to... I mean the world today is one thing. If you
did go back to 2012 and looked at the world and then looked at the world in
2024, it's radically different. It's pretty fucking wild.
And if you had to say, like, what happened?
Like, historically, when we look back at the collapse
of Western civilization, for say,
let's say it all goes sideways and we go into nuclear war
and this and that and the grid goes down,
we're back to Stone Age people, if anybody survives.
If you go back to, you know, that this time, if a thousand years
from now people look back in this time, they'll be looking at a sequence of events, like what
happened that caused all this? What was the catalyst? Was it social media? Was it the
– I mean, December 21st, 2012 was a random number relatively but just 12
2012 is a significant beginning of the change of society
I think I think social media use yes, I would agree
I think you could parse this out where every single day as a historical
Right of greater or lesser significance depending upon your point of view chat GPT
Of course when you look at things like that, the ubiquitous use of AI,
the fact that it seems to be getting far more powerful,
far quicker than we could predict.
Yeah, artificial intelligence, I think, is misnamed.
I call it digital intelligence.
It can be that, but it's ultimately natural intelligence.
You know, we have created artificial intelligence.
You know, we have given birth to this technology.
It is from our natural intelligence that we have created a subset of artificial intelligence.
Yeah.
100 million microbes in a cubic inch of soil.
You know, eight, ten or more miles of mycelium, cross-talking, all these organisms,
a quorum that's
in constant biomolecular communication. The infinite,
not infinite, but the enormous amount of complexity that's
under every footstep that we take, and we get so
intoxicated by our new invention, that we think it's
the brightest object in the Christmas tree. I think AI is
going to be fantastic for medicine. It's going to be fantastic for so many things. But I
don't think AI will be able to capture intentionality or generosity or the emotional indebtedness
we have. When you find and find somebody who's at a disadvantage, who needs help, you reach out your hand in kindness.
It's not a one-to-one transactional exchange.
The fact that you, Joe, helped somebody else when you didn't need to, and there's no obligation,
circumstantially otherwise, you voluntarily helped somebody. You've created a reciprocal debt of gratitude that cannot fall into any metric, I believe.
That person's going to go, Joe helped me. That guy's good. I owe it to myself and to him to pass it forward.
And that's what I think is also happening. I'm going to segue back to psilocybin. When you look at psilocybin, a person's in turmoil, they're angry. There's a great example here in Austin, where the police chief in
the police force, there's one bad actor. And other law enforcement officers were very worried
this person was going to take the department down, and he was just, should not be in law
enforcement. He was angry. He acted out. And they encouraged him to go to
a weekend church, and he recognized he had problems. He did a high dose of psilocybin.
He came back the next day over the weekend on Monday, and people did not recognize him.
He fundamentally changed into a new person.
He lost his anger issues. He was polite, considerate. He asked for forgiveness.
Think about that. We don't want to talk about negative things because we're
embarrassed and we share the shame of a family member or... but when something
positive happens, I'm talking to you about it. It's like a pebble in the pond that emanates out echoes of goodness and goodwill.
Yeah.
And that's where I don't think AI is going to be able to cover and quantify.
It might try to, it might have higher predictive outcomes based on the data sets, but I just
feel like, you know, we need to train AI for our benefit.
We need to learn from AI.
But our humanity and who we are and our intentionality
and friendship and love for each other,
I think will always be the super force
that governs the universe.
Well, that's a beautiful sentiment.
I think our ability to be kind to each other is very important to us.
I don't know if it's very important to the sun.
I wonder if what we are and the things that are so valuable to us exist because it sort of motivates us and pushes us in the direction that we
currently find ourselves in, where we're in a constant state of technological evolution
and innovation, and that this is all, this is what motivates us to do these things. And
I wonder if these life forms that we're creating, and I think we are, and I think
we've probably already done it to a certain extent, that these don't have all of these
same values because they're not us, but they'll also be free of all the things that do cause
depression and do cause anger and do cause irrationality and do cause harmful thoughts
and feelings and painful memories and do cause harmful thoughts and feelings and
and painful memories and all those things. These are remnants of
our ancient primate DNA that is necessary to us because we are trapped
in it but might not be necessary to whatever this next stage of existence is.
Yeah I can see that but But you know, families matter.
Yeah, it matters to the families.
And they do.
But they're finite.
These are experiences that we're having currently.
And it is important currently.
It's important.
So I'm not diminishing it.
But I'm saying if I had to take an overall perspective, is this the only way to do it?
No, it's not the only way to do it.
Our emotions and our desires and needs, the's not the only way to do it is our our emotions and our
Desires and needs the things that have motivated us to get us to this position that we're currently in are those
riddled with side effects like war and murder and
Thievery and all the things that we know that exist in the world that
Are a part of the human condition if you know if you ask an any rational person today
What are the odds will have no war in three years fucking zero zero humans have always engaged in war well
What is that? Why is that? Well, it's because of the motivations. They're all the same
They're the same motivations that Napoleon had the same motivation
People who are abused when there are a child have a tendency to become abusers when they're adults. I
Think that psilocybin makes nicer people. I think so more compassionate
Yeah
and I'd like to redefine the benefits in the theory of evolution is not the survival of the fittest but the extension of generosity of
Surplus beyond your own needs to help a neighbor or a friend
I think we're talking about different things because I agree with that well wholeheartedly generosity of surplus beyond your own needs to help a neighbor or a friend.
I think we're talking about different things because I agree with that wholeheartedly.
And I think for human beings, they're extraordinarily beneficial and they have been for me.
My concern is that we are like Homo sapien version one and that this new thing that we
become whether we integrate or whether we just die off, is another thing.
I agree with you.
I think we're at the crossroads.
In the crossroads, one leads to an extinction path and the other one is sustainable because
ultimately we cannot continue in destroying the biosphere and expect it to support us.
Right.
Yeah.
And just our way of living is kind of unsustainable long term.
The positive hope is that AI and science itself and technological innovation will mitigate
all of the negative side effects that we will concentrate on using intelligence to clean
up the air and clean up the ocean and sort of fix all the problems that we've personally
created. and clean up the ocean and do all the and sort of fix all the problems that we've personally created
But I what I wonder is that
We are so attached to us to the idea of us with all of our flaws. Are we any different than?
Australia Pythagos if you told Australia Pythagos
Hey buddy in the future everyone's gonna have a phone in their pocket and no one's gonna need all these muscles and fucking hair all over your face and back
This is like you're gonna die off. You're not gonna be you anymore
Australia Pythagoras like get the fuck out of here. I gotta go gather food get away from me. You're an idiot
You know, I don't want to be you
I want to be me if it was no more Australia Pythagoras they all we all die off that would suck because that's all you know
And I think that homo sapiens are
not long.
Oh you asked very very good questions for which there's very few answers and but I think
they are very active asking the questions to stimulate the thought creates the milieu
of creativity that will come up with solutions to some of these issues.
I hope so.
I would like to think that we become an enlightened species. I. I would like to think that we become an enlightened species.
I would like to think that we get our shit together.
Psychedelics is the best potential last hope. Yeah, it really is. It's funny that it's the most
undermined. It's the most maligned publicly, the most dismissed as being nonsense.
Usually, and almost entirely, by people who haven't experienced it.
Which is really fascinating.
When you see people that have not had psychedelic experiences, dismissed psychedelic experiences,
that is a wild thing to do.
Like, boy, you are so silly, and you don't even know you're silly, and you're the majority,
which is wild.
Yeah, we represent less than the 1% of those who are psychedelically experienced who understand
many of the studies like at Johns Hopkins.
What are the numbers?
Do we know publicly?
If you have just the United States,
what percentage of people have had
legitimate breakthrough psychedelic experiences?
Less than 1%.
Less than 1%.
How many people have experimented with psychedelics?
I think, depending on the age group,
it actually is quite high now.
It's up to 10%, 20%.
But how do you explain
the ineffable? How do you explain something that you cannot put to words? And this is
where it's just like, oh, you people are crazy because you can't articulate it. And then
every person that I know of have gone through one of these heroic doses, come back and say,
oh my God, I can't even explain it. Exactly. You know, it's like we have a thin sliver
of reality right now, Joe. Right. We're looking at you and Jamie, we have such a thin sliver of reality right now, Joe. We're, look at you and Jamie, we have such a thin sliver.
And when you're under these experiences, the entire universe opens up.
And you see that my consciousness has been so limited.
And now I understand that I'm in a relationship with everything in the universe.
And it's also not just a feeling, it's this intense visual experience.
It's a feeling of being with a capital B.
And then you feel like, oh, my mortality, that's okay.
My birth, that's a good part of the continuum.
I demolecularize and I reassemble into a different form
where my molecules and the atoms reassemble.
I think this is the continuum of existence
expands the dawn of time to the end of time
and even now beyond.
I think that it gives me a great solace
in my own life to realize
that I'm part of something much larger.
I wanna share with you my Billy Graham story.
Oh boy.
I've never mentioned this publicly.
I've taught over 3,000 students in vitro propagation
how to grow mycelium, edible mushrooms, gourmet mushrooms.
I did these workshops for a long time.
And I just, one very nice man came in,
he was young 40s, mid 40s. He waited until everybody was out of the room.
And this is about 1995, 1996. And he waited and said, Paul, I was sent here.
Oh, boy.
I go, okay. And I said, well, who sent you? I said, I'm with the Council of Twelve
I said, I'm with a council of 12 with Billy Graham, the charismatic Christian leader. And he said, many of the council of 12 have come to their Christian beliefs through Silas
Hybin.
Wow.
I have come to thank you for all your work for helping us have a better relationship
with Jesus and our religious faith.
Wow.
Now, I was, my mother was a charismatic Christian, I grew up in that environment, I mean I was
like, of course blown away.
What is a charismatic Christian?
They speak in tongues, they do healings, they're, you know, they have their own culture for
sure.
But I've heard this now with Jewish people, Islamic people, with the Buddhist people.
It seems that psilocybin doesn't create a conflict in religions.
It supports you in your religious beliefs of dedication to what you want and hope to
become as a religious practitioner or follower, but it doesn't throw the other
religions under the bus. It just makes you more dedicated to your purpose, to walk with
kindness and goodness and reciprocity to be a better person.
Do you think that the psilocybin was what the host was made out of?
I don't know. I don't know. Have you heard that speculation? Yes I have. And I think
that there's just, this is so rich in history. I just came back from Egypt a
few months ago and I went to ten pyramids. On every pyramid we found
mushroom hieroglyphics. Every one of them. Now, I sent this through Graham Hancock,
some of these hieroglyphs, and Egyptologists said, no, they're shovels. And Jamie, it'd be
a challenge for you to find this, but you... And one number one, shovels will be pointed down.
And it's a perfect example. Well, scientists don't look at Egypt in the context of the ecosystem 4,000 years ago. Right.
And in Africa, the Plateau of Running Rivers, the Tisali and Anjar Plateau has fantastic
– the Bee Man figure.
That plateau is called the Plateau of Running Rivers.
There's no mushrooms growing there.
It's a desert.
Same with the Nile.
It was the breadbasket of the world.
And the Greeks were the Eleusinian mysteries.
Caesar was a lover of Cleopatra.
Then Mark Anthony, 20 years younger,
then Caesar became a lover of Cleopatra.
You would think that these people,
the highest strata of society, being lovers,
would share the most intimate secrets
and potions and all of that.
I think that happened.
So we have, and we have two other scientists
have published this before me that hieroglyphs on these temples are of psilocybin mushrooms.
So those look like mushrooms. That's one of them. Boy, these still look like mushrooms.
But there's better ones. Okay, now let's pause on this one. So I wanna give a shout out to Abdel Azim.
He published this in 2016.
This is the goddess of Thor, the Dendurah temple.
If you look this up,
it gets less than one millimeter of rain a year.
That's how dry it is.
Those, that's the vase there
with these mushroom-like figures coming out.
And the lower part is the blue lotus, a water lily associated with a mushroom.
Now he published this in 2016.
I'm not the only one.
Stephen Berlant in 2005 published this in a fantastic individual, African
American who died from COVID.
His name was Kendiri. And from Detroit, he also believed from his African
ancestry, that the African Egyptians use psilocybin
mushrooms.
So because
it's just fascinating.
Isn't it amazing?
Both the next one, you can't jam.
What do they do? What do they try to say that is you can't say
that's a bunch of shovels?
They know, but there's other ones.
So what is the conventional explanation for what you're looking at?
They said they didn't know what it was.
How do they not know what it is?
This is it. Hiding, it's not hiding.
But it's not hiding. They're delusional.
It's not hiding.
They're not willing to talk about it. Is that what it is?
Yes, exactly. This is philosophy conventions on the right. Now, as a cultivator, and many of your listeners are cultivators, they know what I'm going
to say is true.
You can pick up cow paddies with Psilocybe covensis, put it into a vase, just like that.
It collects, you can put water in it.
It limits evaporation.
The mycelium seeks light and air. So it would pop out of these orifices. That is a taxonomically correct image,
drawing of Psalos and Bicubensis. And down below is the blue water lily, and there's Psalos and
Bicubensis. The Egyptians' royal colors were gold and blue. The blue lily, water lily, the blue lotus is blue.
Slosmica vences is golden. It bruises bluish. And Jamie, if you could humor me with just
two more slides, there's the blue lotus. There's another example of the mushrooms associated with
the falcon. I mean, there's dozens of these images. Look
at that one on the left.
Pete Slauson Those are so obviously mushrooms.
David Sinclair Not a shovel!
Pete Slauson No.
David Sinclair A shovel would be upside down.
Pete Slauson It's so obviously mushrooms. But it's also
like the way the cap is formed.
David Sinclair And the cuspidae cap, the shape of this.
And here is a painting on papyrus, the Temple of Osiris, it also has very similar. And this next image,
I think is the next image. Now there's a blue wing of Pseudosomikia benzes. Again, the next
one, we'll just skip this one. And okay, I was looking for blue juice. I don't know if
we have blue juice on there.
Nat. That one's wild. What is those little figurines?
David. Those are mushroom stones, Mesoamerican mushroom stones from Guatemala.
Nat. Wow. And they persisted for 1,500 BCE to 500 AD, a thousand years before the
conquistadors came. And they were representative, we think, of a mushroom
cult. And they could have been a family like, you know, heirlooms. How silly is
that the conventional archaeologists won't acknowledge that those are mushrooms. Well, we actually have a reward out and this is great that I'm speaking about it
Is that we have a reward of a thousand dollars for anyone who can find philosophy conventions
DNA in the ruins and
Because we can amplify the DNA we can prove that they were either in
the vases, in the ponds, or near the ponds and doing core samples.
Sort of like they've done with the Illicinium mysteries with ergot.
With the ergot, yeah. Jamie, can you see the blue juice image?
No, I don't see it. You don't see it? It's a hand with a vessel of blue liquid in it, two two images. So more
than one thing can be true. When you're looking at the Eleusinian mysteries, oh there we go.
So this is something that blew me away. Have you seen Dune 2?
I have not. I heard it's awesome. Amazing. Frank Herbert was
a friend of mine who wrote Dune. Frank Herbert lived in port towns in Washington. And Frank Herbert
came to visit me. And Frank told me he was growing chanterelles in Christmas trees that were just
five years old. I go, that's impossible. I ask, how are you doing
that? And he goes, well, I take chanterelles and I put them into water and I pour it to the base of
the trees and it comes up. So there is the blue juice. And so if you take psilocybin, cubensis,
or any psilocybin mushroom that's potent, you put it in the water, you create blue juice.
And this is in Dune II, where they drink it.
And so I asked Frank, Frank, the eyes are blue.
The benjesaret are these shamanic women who have this high ascended cult.
Is it based on Maria Sabina?
I said, and maggots grow through mushrooms. And I said, everything,
the spice seems like it spores, and your blue eyes and this blue juice. And he goes, you're the
first person that's noticed this. Oh, wow. He said he was tripping on psilocybin mushrooms.
He was laying on his deck, and he saw worms coming out of the mushrooms that he ate, the soul-side mushrooms,
and that was the dawn of the idea.
Now, this is absolutely true, and I haven't met, you know, Frank Herbert's son.
I really want to meet him to tell him this because he did say something about, I think
he had two sons.
My memory is fogging on this.
But he said, I'm keeping this secret from my sons.
And I said, why? He goes, well, they're
illegal, and they're just at the age right now that I don't want them to tell other people
about this.
Oh, no.
So, but it all makes perfect sense. The spices spores, the blue juice from the blue juice
you saw that was made there, it all ties together. And look at that beautiful color. Okay, so
this is from the Church of Ambrosia, I think David Hodges, and this is Psilocybe covensis
on the right, and this is Psilocybe azorescens on the left. And psilocybin is a prodrug for
psilocin. Psilocin degrades enzymatically into indigo, the indigo molecule complex. And it's actually
reversible, though I don't, haven't seen it happen, but theoretically it's reversible.
But this is the blue juice. And so, wow, we discovered this, several people discovered
this independently. Well, would the Egyptians discover it? Yes. You know, would the Mazatecs
and the Aztecs, the Mayans discover this? Yes. This is very simple. You powder, you put the mushrooms in the
water and it elutes into the water the next day and you end up with this potent
blue psilocybin packed elixir. And so this also speaks that, you know, I think
people all over the world, when they
are experimenting and they're inspired and they know this is a sacred substance, how
do we preserve it, how do we protect it?
Oh, you put honey with it.
Well, honey is antibacterial.
And in the 1516, the Bavarian Beer Act banned the mushrooms.
That's interesting.
They banned mushrooms from beer
because mushrooms are being added along with henbane and other plants to make these narcotic
elixirs and, you know, meads, honey beer. So, you know, don't underestimate the creativity
and innovation of any people living long enough in their ecosystem, interacting,
experimenting, making mistakes, making successes, building...
For thousands of years.
For thousands of years.
Yeah.
You know, we should not be intellectually myopic, which I think is another problem with
the hubris of science.
Well, it's also a problem with this whole drug schedule thing. Because when it's schedule one, even talking
about it openly opens you to criticism and ridicule, especially if you've been involved
in academia for decades, right? So you started your career and your mindset towards these
substances at a time where it was very detrimental to your reputation to be pursuing
these things.
Absolutely. That's why as much criticism as Timothy Leary and Ram Dasketz and even
Andy Weil, they were all incredibly courageous. No one more courageous, however, than Maria
Sabina, who opened up the Mazatec tradition, and alsoina Wasin. Our Gordon Wasin's wife was a Russian
physician who was also a mycologist. The difference and the similarity in wheel or
dedica attitude to Maria Sabina and the Mazatecs and to Valentina Wasin who died in 1958,
but she grew up in Russia. She knew how to identify mushrooms. These are not people just taking salt-side mushrooms.
They knew how to go out into the fields.
And Valentina Vyatina-Vosin, she knew the Russian names.
They wrote a book, Mushrooms, Russian History, it was going to be a cookbook of 500 recipes.
And it became this great ethno-mycological exploration.
But these courageous women were not only medicine women, they were field mycologists who could
go out into nature and find them.
I have a DEA license now, and I passed my background checks.
Yay!
I guess they have a listen to your podcast.
I'm uh, yeah. Well, no, I have i'm very serious about this. Um, I had one also in the 70s and 80s and
My father at the end of his life asked me to trip with him on psilocybin
I turned him down
Alexander smith who wrote a monograph on the genus philosophy the father of american mycology
one of the greatest mycologists ever
who's published many new species of psilocybin mushrooms in
1979 78 and
Aspen, Colorado
Saxon snowmass he asked me
To trip with him on psilocybin mushrooms. Here's like having your hero, elder, saying,
I trust you, I want a journey, I've read all about it.
Will you trip with me?
Both of them asked me,
and I asked their wives the same question.
Will you journey with me and with him?
And both of their wives said no.
with him and both other wives said no and I said I can't I can't have this experience with you in both cases I was leaving leaving the next day what would
I abandon them would they have this life-changing experience I have all
these questions and I'm not there to talk through it and and and so I adopted
the policy and I'm very strict about this.
Nature provides I don't. I mean, I am very strict. I don't feel it's ethical for me to
give a psilocybin mushroom to somebody else. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psych... I'm
a mycologist. I have my own deep personal religious freedoms and I do believe that these
are sacraments and they are part of my own personal religion. I'll stand on that. I've published on that. I believe in that. But I have no right to give it
to somebody else. And I think this is really important. We need to be adults
about this. These are very potent medicines. And the rituals of the
Mazatecs and the Aztecs and the Mayans and so many first peoples and
indigenous peoples, they had the structures set up.
They were honed over the centuries to how to properly administer these sacraments.
We, many of us from European descent, we're orphans. We're spiritual orphans. We've been cast
from our religions, our religious roots, from my Germanic roots. I named my son, Asurus, he's probably gonna listen to this,
hi As, in his Latin masculine singular for sky blue.
And I named a species called Salacife asurusens
because it turns blue and also from my son.
And when I named my son Asurus,
my family gave me a just tremendous criticism.
How could you give this kid this name?
And then when he's five years old, we're at our my grandmother's house and we're going through our
family history and our coat of arms were from the house of Asher. Oh wow. And then we're from the
house of Guilford and that within the house of Guilford, the sub-house of Asher. And I looked it up and there were 30 miles from,
my family's roots are 30 miles from Stonehenge.
So September 22nd, the Druids have invited me
to be in the center of Stonehenge for a ceremony.
They are rediscovering and they maintain,
they've used psilocybin mushrooms throughout history.
It's called re-indigenization
with the Egyptians, alchemists that I've recently met. They know their ancestors, they believe
it spiritually, they use psilocybin mushrooms in combination with the blue lotus. It's called
re-indigenization, rediscovering your ancient roots of your practices.
What is the psychoactive compound in the blue lotus?
Very complex. A blue lotus is amazing. I've only been recently introduced to it.
I've had some electras made of it. It wakens up your receptors.
It gives you this hyper state of consciousness. It's not speedy.
It's kind of an alertness phenomenon.
And so does it come with heightened circular respiratory?
I know the pharmacology other people can speak of because I'm, again, on stay in my lane of
mycology.
Did you notice the elevated heart rate?
No.
Not shortness of breath, nothing like that.
Nothing like a stimulant?
No.
I experienced super alertness, that's what I would say.
It was like I was super sensitive.
So they're combining now these Egyptian alchemists I met,
Pselostomy cabensis, golden mushroom, bruises blue, with a blue lotus. The blue lotus opens
the daytime, closes at night, you know, birth and death. And now with the druids, I say they've
always used Pselostomy mushrooms. And so there's so many other peoples now are re-indigenizing.
You were going on about what the blue lotus does though?
The blue lotus in combination with Pseudocybe covencis looks like it's an elixir that was
practiced for a very long time as evidenced by the hieroglyphs that we just saw.
What is in the blue lotus? Like what is the actual compound?
I cannot tell you.
Really? Interesting. Okay, today the blue lotus flower has been used primarily as a
sleep aid and anxiety reliever however at higher doses achieved by inhalation
users can experience euphoria and hallucinations the psychoactive effects
of the flower are attributed to two a how you say that a Aporphine? Aporphine, alkaloids. Apomorphine and nuciferin?
Hmm.
Interesting.
Oh, it's good for erectile dysfunction.
Yay.
Oh no.
It may help muscle control in those with conditions such as Parkinson's disease and erectile dysfunction.
Dopamine agonist, that's interesting.
So much like some of the dopamine agonists that have like weird psycho side effects
You know, there's like pharmaceutical dope dope mean agonists like excellent Jamie boy
Reequip, you know what that is? No, it's a it's a crazy case where a guy won a lawsuit against Galaxo Smith-Kline
Because he was on a dopamine agonist and it turned
him into a gay sex and gambling addict.
He was a heterosexual man who had Parkinson's, had wife and kids and could not stop picking
guys up and random chance encounters and he got raped, he lost all of his money, he gambled
his entire life savings away
it was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and
Got off the medication and the symptoms all went away and he realized that it was this dopamine agonist
He actually won in court and not a lot of money. Hmm. Not a lot of money
That cause-and-effect sounds very complicated.. Yeah, the dopamine agonist thing.
If you Google pharmaceutical dopamine agonist side effects,
they're pretty well documented.
And one of them seems to be a lowering of inhibitions
or a lack of control over inhibitions, which
would lead to, they think, gambling problems.
People just can't put it all on black,
let's go spend that roulette.
Like they just go crazy and they just wanna gamble,
which is very strange.
Well, that seems like creating
of obsessive compulsive disorder, you know, so.
Something along those lines,
but also like this guy was saying
that he was completely heterosexual
until he started taking these dope mean agonists
and then he wanted to have a lot of like random dangerous gay sex.
I've been immersed into a group of psychiatrists and my heart goes out to them because it is
such fuzzy science.
It's just so complex and you know you can become a medical doctor first then you can
go on for two to four more years become become a psychiatrist. And it just seems like it's really, it really shows that the psychiatry
is still at the infancy of its science.
Well, there's so many things like SSRIs are now showing that it's not a chemical imbalance.
That's what the whole basis of it was about. What are the dopamine agonist known side effects?
Because some of them are pretty crazy.
Nausea, vomiting, orthostatic, hypotension, headache, dizziness, and cardiac arrhythmia
among the most common side effects of dopamine agonist.
These adverse effects are mostly dosage dependent.
It's highly recommended to start these medications at low dosage to reduce the risk of orthostatic
hypotension, delirium hallucination, seizure, coma.
But some people have their Google re equip lawsuit.
It's like re equip our equip lawsuit.
Yeah, Parkinson's patient wins lawsuit over gay sex addiction.
Look at this.
So I think this was in the UK.
Click on one of those.
Okay.
Pfizer settles lawsuit tying sex and gambling addictions to dopamine meds.
So this was Pfizer.
This is a different one.
This is a different lawsuit.
There's more than one lawsuit.
The confidential settlement with 172 patients
said to be for millions of dollars
was approved by the judge in federal court in Australia.
Financial review reports,
although the payments were delayed
until they were assessed by independent review.
Pfizer, okay, side effects of the drugs
they were taking to treat Parkinson's disease
or restless leg syndrome.
Yeah, and so gay sex and gamble. Causing them to gamble away their life savings or
become obsessed with shopping or sex. And so it seems like an impulse control.
Sounds like Las Vegas to me.
It's Vegas. Like imagine if they could sell that in Vegas.
They occurred in at least 10% of the patients, but said they
probably were under-reported due to patients who were ashamed to talk about what they had
done. Wow. Interesting. So the one, okay, re-equip. Okay. FDA should require a black
box warning on labels of dopamine agonists, a class that includes WeEqu equip from Glaxo Smith Klein, UCB's new pro and
Miraplex from Bollinger Engelheim. The German company was sued by a New York man some years
back who said taking the drugs and turned him into a pathological gambler who ruined
him as he gambled away three million dollars. Wild. Yeah, I would be just a word of caution. When you read headline articles like this, you
know, there's probably a lot more behind the story.
I'm sure.
Behind the covers.
Well, there's also there's probably a lot more if you're talking about the difference
between the blue lotus flower, some naturally occurring substance probably also has a bunch
of other things in with it as well. It's sort of like when they had Marinalol remember when they try to do like synthetic THC and give it to people it was terrible
Mm-hmm, you know because they didn't want people smoking pot
Because there's a lot of things that come with it, right? It's not just as the individual compound, right?
It's like all the things inside of it
Especially when it comes to cannabis the other cannabinoids that work synergistically with THC. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think we're at the extraordinary time of reevaluation.
I hope that we have greater respect for diverse points of view.
I think a lot of these observational studies and patient reporting should steer medicine.
I think observational studies in general populate databases for scientists to be able
to look at, looking for signal.
I think AI will be fantastic.
Yeah, I was going to say that.
Elucidating signals that we can't possibly see.
So I think there is a convergence of psychedelic science and artificial intelligence, but I
hopefully is guided by a very high ethical standard where we
are always, you know, trying to steer the course, you know, in a way that is
judicious and does not get away from us. And that's the biggest concern about AI
that I have. That's why we have to give psilocybin to everybody involved in AI.
We have to give psilocybin to AI, I just don't know how to do it., it could that be programmed in I don't know compassion psychedelic experiences feeling of connectedness
What if the AI automatically knows all these things because it's already achieved some sort of state of enlightenment
Just by virtue of not being attached to all the things that hold us back hubris ego
You know all the things that ruin humanity
Maybe it will automatically be enlightened because I'll be connected to those things
But is AI singularity in and of itself?
It's a diversified singularities that are converging to a single
Right concept eventually as time rolls out
Well that might be a part of what psychedelic plays in all this that might be that might be our parachute
part of what psychedelic plays in all this that might be that might be our parachute. That might be the one thing that can kind of help us make our way through this and keep
some semblance of sanity.
I just think that the advantage of psilocybin is anyone can grow it in their own home.
It democratizes psychedelics.
It's easy to do.
It ties you back with nature. You know, I'm a libertarian in that the government has no business, you know, in crossing my
threshold of my door.
What I do with my family, what I do with my home, etc.
That's my business.
Especially when it comes to something that's not harming anyone.
Right.
And especially to something that, like the LD50 is so high, you'd have to have pounds
and pounds of it to get sick and die.
I think it was 38 pounds.
Yeah, that's not...
Which you'd die from dehydration of absorbing the mushrooms.
You literally wouldn't be able to do it.
You wouldn't be able to eat enough to kill you.
And I think this speaks to the freedom of consciousness.
You know, it's a basic human civil right.
We should all have the civil right for our own... our rights to our own consciousness.
We also have to look at it in terms of the rights
of individuals.
Like, an individual does not have the right
to tell you what you can and can't do
that's not gonna harm someone else.
It's just wrong.
It's wrong fundamentally for a person
to have that kind of power over another person,
someone doing something in the privacy of their own home
where it's not harming other people, and it's not even dangerous to themselves. Maybe psychoactively dangerous.
I mean, maybe someone who's very vulnerable, maybe someone who has schizophrenia, maybe
someone who is already psychologically impaired. Maybe yes, then. But the only way we find
out about that is through studies. The only way to do that is to legalize it. The only
way to do that is to change the way people think about it. And I think what you spoke about with
police officers, my experience with soldiers, with veterans that have had very positive
and beneficial experiences, and even people that are like near death, you know, they're
in hospice care that have had very powerful, like...
Well, there's a great organization called Roots to Thrive, it's a Canadian nonprofit.
They've taken, I think, 60 patients, end of life, anxiety, most of them stage four diagnoses,
a few months to live.
They have eight caregivers, eight patients, they meet on Zoom, they get together, they
prepare for this.
They do high doses of psilocybin
with Canadian government approval.
At our First Nations healthcare facility.
And a number of great people are involved
with Roots to Thrive, I highly recommend them.
And this makes me wanna cheer up,
is that in one of the sessions, one of the first sessions, there
are eight patients, they get together and they prepare and they lay down in this common
room and when you do a high dose of psilocybin, as you know, the effects come on pretty quickly,
10 to 20 minutes, but an hour to two hours in, you're peaking. And just as they were peaking,
two hours in, you're, you're peaking. And just as they were peaking, the First Nation elders on the other side of the wall
started drumming. And everybody started crying, because they knew
that they knew, you know, how important that was. And to have
First Nations support with people who are dying, and the majority of those people come
out of the experience not fearing death, and they become counselors to their families,
saying it's okay, I'm dying.
And they change the whole relationship with leaving.
And interestingly, and I just heard this number recently of the 58 or 60 people, only four
of them have died.
And they all had terminal illnesses going back over three years now.
So you think about, wow, mind over matter.
If you don't have this anguish, this inflammatory pathway, you now have optimism about life
and your meaning, you're a caregiver, you have purpose, then isn't your immune system
upregulated?
It has to be. We know that emotionally depressed people do have a depressed immune systems.
Well, people who have found a new lease on life and purpose, you know, it would augment their innate
immunity. I've always wondered about that with COVID as well. The people that were terrified of
COVID and once they got COVID, they were just overwhelmed with anxiety and fear and all that
does is crush your immune system. And all the fear that was being propagated by the media, this constant like death bell that
was rang all over the media just scared the shit out of people. And it probably
weakened a lot of people's immune system and probably cost a lot of lives.
There's no doubt about it. I think basically spreading widespread panic,
you know, increasing anxiety dep depressive of the immune system.
Yeah, there's a lot of factors, right?
There's companionship, love, friendship,
happiness in your life, physical activity.
There's all these different mitigating factors
that can alleviate some of your anxiety.
And if you don't have those,
all those things are gonna compound,
and it is a cascading effect.
Well, that's why, again, I see death life and disease health and disease has been a it's a multifactorial equation
How many coefficient variables can you get on this side of the equation?
That on this side of the equation results in a better life a healthier life a better attitude
I think psychedelics and a particular psilocybin is a very major
I think psychedelics and in particular psilocybin is a very major coefficient variable that can help tilt the balance and
Moreover, it's just not a linear equation
It becomes a matrix of implications to everybody else around you in your community your family your community the city the nation the world
Is that we need psilocybin now for societal benefit more so than we have ever needed. And as time has come, and so I applaud all the researchers who have struck out, and my
discussions with law enforcement is really interesting.
They want to put their energy where they can have the most positive impact to protect the
health of society. And fentanyl syndicates are a
high priority. Individual use of psilocybin is not. And that's how it should be. I
mean we should really grow up about this stuff. And if there were, there was a
widespread legalization, at the very least you could develop centers where
people could safely take it, and they
would be treated by counselors, and you'd have people who are experienced travelers
that are registered and know how to deal with people and handle people.
And we could do it in like a modern, shamanic setting.
That can be done.
Not that I love lawyers, but one of the best lawyer strategies I've ever seen in my life
is the decriminalization
of psilocybin and psychedelics to the lowest priority of law enforcement.
So it is a violation of the officer's duty, their oath to use public funds to prosecuting
people for psychedelics.
So it is at the level of jaywalking, right? It's basically, it's
the lowest priority of law enforcement, which means if a law enforcement officer tries to
bring a case forward, it is malpractice of their ethical duty to perform their job to
waste the court and the public's money focusing on psychedelic
prosecution.
As it should be.
As it should be.
And that's just one step, right?
It should be legal.
We should get an understanding of it and how many people it could benefit.
I think decriminalization is the lowest hanging fruit in this long walk towards legalization.
Decriminalization I think is, I think it should be legal.
I mean, I want to make sure
everyone knows that. But I think from a practical point of view, lowering the penalties and
reducing it as the lowest priority of law enforcement makes a lot of sense.
What did you think about California's decision to not legalize it or not decriminalize it
and allow it for, they wanted to allow it for therapeutic use, but they wanted to set
thresholds first.
They said no thresholds were established and no protocol or program was established, and
they would reconsider if that was done.
Well, right now my understanding is that the Council of Physicians have blocked all research
on psilocybin and psychedelics in California.
It's a total blockade.
They will not allow any research. There's a
governing board for Schedule 1 substances in California, which most
states don't have, and that governing board is a stop-go board for progress of
research on Schedule 1s. They have dictated essentially no research on
psychedelics in California. Is that a finding issue?
No, I think it's a political science issue.
You get physicians or other people
who are not experienced with these substances
making decisions about these substances,
ill-informed decisions from inexperienced people
for the most part.
And so they have a distorted perception
of what these things do,
and they don't feel that there's any value in studies
because they haven't experienced them.
It's like somebody who's never flown an
airplane who then thinks they know how to fly a flying airplane telling you
giving you advice on how and why you should not fly an airplane because
they're just inexperienced or out of their out of their kind of experiences.
That's not good especially for a progressive state or supposedly
progressive state.
Well, the initiatives, the public ballot initiatives, 70, 80 percent.
In Canada recently, a survey, 80 percent of the citizens of Canada want psychedelics approved
for therapeutic use and decriminalized.
80 percent.
So, when the states that have ballots, this is how these big changes are occurring.
And then citizens paid with public funds, public officers, public employees, then have
to follow the will of the people.
And so I think the ballot initiative gets politicians out of the hot seat.
They have to say, oh, we have to follow the will of the people.
I did not stick my neck out on that.
It's the ballot initiative that people have spoke
So I think this is people's revolution movement
So I think this is a revolution for the freedom of consciousness for the groundswelling
That's occurring not in the United States and Canada, but all over the world
It's so desperately needed well said Paul Stamets. You're the fucking man. I appreciate you very much. Thank you very much for being here
It's always a pleasure to talk to you
Your company that you sell these wonderful mushrooms at is called host defense. It's fungi comm you get that and
Thank you for everything you do my friend. I really really really appreciate it
I want to thank you Joe and I want to thank you for having this opportunity
I want to thank all the JRE listeners for contributing to these observational studies because you can help
all the JRE listeners for contributing to these observational studies because you can help inform scientists to make good decisions and create validated studies that help lead
the medical science community forward.
We need all of you, you know, so.
Here, here, get out of freaks.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye everybody.
Take care.
Bye. Thanks for watching!