Theology in the Raw - How We Consume the News Is a Discipleship Problem: Jason Woodruff
Episode Date: April 1, 2024Jason Woodruff is the founder of The Pour Over, a Christian news organization with over half a million subscribers. The Pour Over is both a podcast and Newsletter that focus on providing limited news ...content that is not partisan or aimed and telling you how you should feel about the events they're reporting on, but simply tells you what's going on while reminding us of our allegiance to Christ and his kingdom. In this conversation, we talk all about how mainstream news outlets can (and often do) have a devastating effect on our minds and hearts, and often produce anything but the fruits of the Spirit in our lives. Get a FREE one year supply of vitamin D plus 5 travel packs! DrinkAG1.com/TITR Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw
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patreon.com forward slash TheologyNRaw. Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of
TheologyNRaw. My guest today is Jason Woodruff, who is the founder of The Pour Over, a Christian
news organization with over half a million subscribers. I've had Jason on the podcast
before because I'm a huge fan of The Pour Over. Their podcast is absolutely fantastic. And the
podcast is basically an audio version of the newsletter. And I just love, love, love how they
approach how Christians should consume or not consume the news, which I think is a huge
discipleship problem in the church today. And we talk all about that, kind of like a Theode discipleship conversation around how
Christians can or should consume the news.
What are some ways that are absolutely dangerous and war against the fruits of the Spirit?
And what are some ways we can do so in a way that's helpful and healthy for our spiritual
lives?
So please welcome back to the show for the second time, the one and only Jason Woodruff. Jason, this is your second time
with Theology in Raw. Your work with the pour over has continued to blow up since last time I had you
on, it was already really popular. And now
I just, it seems like you guys are going big gangbusters. Is, is ministry good? I mean,
I don't know if you call it a ministry. Do you call it ministry or your organization?
We're missional. Okay. Yeah. Or organization. We're, we're definitely mission focused.
Yeah. It seems like there's, um, you know, some, some discontent around the news and uh lots of it's not just us lots of
other news sources and stuff are blown up because people don't like the news and and so we're trying
to do something unique and and not just be one of many uh kind of alternative news sources but
say like hey here here's how you manage your relationship with the news better and and move
forward tell us the background how did you cultivate the desire and passion and perceived need to create The Pour Over?
Just a reflection on feeling like my personal relationship with the news was not good.
And I actually, so in 2018, early 2018, maybe 2017, I spent time where I only listened to basically Fox for a few months,
and then spent time where I only listened to CNN. And I was intentionally saying,
okay, I'm just curious how they... Going in saying both of these are... The other side hates the
other one. And it's like I I going in with the, the knowledge of
both these organizations are presenting it as truth, but clearly trying to push some narrative
or whatever. And let's just kind of, I want to see how they do things differently.
And honestly, the big, the, the, the big takeaway was even knowing that even going in with that,
uh, thought I watched my views shift.
And that just bugged me so much.
It's like, man, they have good points.
And then I spend three months on the other one.
It's like, man, they have some good points.
And so that just bugged me.
So you've dug into this quite a bit.
I just see it from the outside.
It just seems like such a pervasive, I mean, I can't use the strongest terms, like pervasive discipleship problem, especially in the political season we're in, especially in the American evangelical church. that people have very strong opinions about politics that is largely dictated by the source
that they're using to get those opinions from. And this is where you have just such
wild different perceptions of the political scene. I'm sure we'll talk about trump a few times on this podcast but
the passion that people have for donald trump is matched by the people that have an anti-trump you
know like he is hitler maybe even worse than hitler he is going to end democracy and then
the other side is you know um no the the left is are they're the authoritarians are the ones that
are telling us
what to believe and how to live whatever and trump is moral train wreck but i mean hey at least he's
gonna speak truth to power and clean the swamp and all that like you see these very different
perception from people that might hold very similar values but they're coming to these
conclusions just very passionate on on each side and i've done what you have done not to
the same extent but when i dabble in each side i'm like oh if i drank from this steady drip for more
than like seven minutes i would be pulled into one side or the other now i primarily look at
third party kind of anti-establishment independent journalists which are you know they have their own
issues or whatever but i i typically don't and if i actually want my news source it's from long form
people who just think there's a lot of corruption among political elites and it's you know anyway i
so i i i typically don't drink from those streams but when when I do, I'm like, oh yeah, I could
totally see where somebody gets sucked into this.
Has that been your, I mean.
Yes.
And, and I will say the, my risk and oh man, the, um, my, my pastor, local pastor here,
church in Iowa city, just, it was, it was a dagger to the heart.
He was, he was using it as an example.
And he's like, and then there's this third group because he, he like just barely, it was, it was a dagger to the heart. He was, he was using it as an example. And he's like, and then there's this third group because he, he like just barely, it was not anything about
politics, but he just like broadly was like, you see the division and he's like, and then there's
the third group. That's like, just like, uh, he's like, which is, which is, Oh, look at how crazy
both these sides are. And like, you create this identity in the middle, which is totally where I
fall, you know, of like, man, if everyone could just zoom out and see, it was like, you create this identity in the middle, which is totally where I fall,
you know, of like, man, if everyone could just zoom out and see, it was like, I have the correct political view, but it's still a political view and yardstick that we're using. And so, um, that,
that really, so the pour over started saying, man, I hate that. I see, I see the power and
influence disciples, the right word. You are a disciple
of your news source if you're spending any amount of time in it. And so saying, okay,
I enjoy the news. I think there's value to Christians being informed. What do I do?
How do I not be a Republican Christian or a Democrat Christian, but be a Christian
who then has maybe some thoughts on political topics or policy?
And so for me, the pour over started as a personal exercise of saying, hey, I'm just
going to try to read widely and then summarize it.
And one of the things that has come out of the pour over that, that is now kind of my
passion is there were a lot of decisions we made along the way that I think were right decisions
that we never articulated well. Like one of the things is the pour overs three times a week and
it's super short. And I think that's so good. Like that communicates loudly.
And honestly, the three times a week, it started once a week because that was my capacity.
We moved to three with plans to go to five.
I remember that.
Yeah.
So you're staying with three.
You're staying with three.
We've stayed with three.
And I'm not saying we could never go to five, but I do think the opportunity to go to five has been around for a long time.
Like we have the capacity for it.
And there's just something that like seems to speak loudly of, no, less snooze is good.
You know, like you don't need 24-7.
You don't even need five days a week.
Like spend five, six minutes three times a week.
Be aware. Those types of decisions that we made, I'm in the process now of trying to define and
articulate them and say, hey, these are principles that shouldn't just go into creating the news.
They're principles and boundaries that we as Christians should set up regardless of
where we get the news.
Christians should set up regardless of where we get the news. And like, this is just how you should have behave if you want to have a spiritually healthy relationship with the news.
Now I'm feeling a little convicted because I do listen to some long form,
typically conversations though, with people that are not partisan at all, really. But that's maybe,
maybe that's too much it's almost like what
happened it's almost like just i i like to listen to how people interact with each other how they
analyze certain things and i just i don't know like i yeah i'm at the point now where
every time i do my own kind of personal research like oh here's this you know divisive news thing
that's in you know thing that flared up.
And whenever I look behind the scenes and do my own kind of research, I'm like, oh, each side is manipulating the evidence.
And I can't really trust the people that are telling me what has happened, what I need to think about it, why it's bad, or who's in the right here.
It's almost always more complicated when you do your own research so we're now just kind of like the
latest thing that flares up how could couldn't you believe this so and so i'm like maybe i don't
know there's like i know you're not giving me the full time i know you don't care about giving me
like the full context so i just kind of take it with a grain of salt but that could produce
cynicism it does produce cynicism but i don't know maybe thaticism. But I don't know. Maybe that's not.
I don't know.
Well, so I think, and this is why read the news at all?
And I run a news organization.
So obviously, I believe there's some reason.
But I'll ask you, what do you think?
And as a Christian and as a, yeah, someone who's pursuing a relationship
with Christ?
That's a great question.
I mean, my knee-jerk response, the fact that you're asking, it makes me think that my response
is going to be a little mundane.
I think just to be, yeah, informed on what's going on and you might say, why?
I think for me personally, because my embodied life, like my town, my neighborhood, my city is very safe,
easy, middle-class. And so I think it's healthy for me to know that probably the majority of
people in the world, or at least a lot of people in the world are are not experiencing
day-to-day safety and just like a middle class life or whatever like like i i probably every
single day i listen to anywhere from five minutes to an hour of an update on israel palestine you
know and and i think that that it could it produces several emotions in me.
One is just, I feel incapacitated.
Is that the right word?
Like, I feel like there's loads of people suffering.
And I don't feel like there's anything I could tangibly really do as an individual.
You know, and that's hard.
I do think it can be healthy for me spiritually just to know that the global kingdom of
God is not all Boise, Idaho, you know? Um, so I don't know.
What do you think is that? Did I pass? Is that a B minus at least?
Yeah, I think, I think that's a great response. And I, um, I'm,
I'm still very much, uh, in the research phase. And, uh,
that is a great, great answer. I think, I think asking that second,
why is important, like to be informed, but why let's take Israel, Palestine. I think there's
saying that the ultimate goal is to somehow glorify God. Yeah. Like we, we want to,
that's, that's the goal of, of Christians. Um, you know, is Christians. In some way, is this drawing me closer to God? Is
it glorifying to God? We certainly don't want to be doing something that is not actively bringing
the opposite of glory to God. And so to say, hey, I'm keeping up to date with a war that's across the world that I, like,
I don't know about you, Netanyahu isn't returning my calls. And so it's like my ability to directly
impact that is limited. Prayer is powerful and we should be praying. And I think maintaining
that empathy that you're talking about. And that's particularly poignant for
Americans, by and large. But to ask the question and to figure out, okay, why am I doing this?
And to then consume enough news to hit that benefit and then stop. And I would argue that if
following the war that you're not able to impact does truly incapacitate you,
then maybe spend that hour learning more about your neighbor, you know, and, and, and people
that you can impact and can do things. Um, so it's figuring out the why. And I would say for me,
there are broadly speaking,
hey, I want to learn about things that impact me, which is very rare. We live in global news and just rarely does anything in the news actually, is it going to change my day-to-day?
Things that I could impact. So again, I can be praying for the war in Israel. How much do I need to know to be able to pray effectively?
You know, that's up for debate.
And do I need an hour every day to be able to pray?
Or, and three is to have these types of discussions and to have discussions with other people.
This is what everyone's talking about.
This is, these are the world, like even there's all sorts of political conversation,
economic conversation, all this stuff. And we want to be able to engage again so that we can glorify
God. So this is where, this is where I say, figure out, I think it's much less news than people
think that allows you to engage in these things.
And also if you're consuming more, if you're watching tons of Fox news or tons of CNN
and then talking with people about it and it's driving wedges in your family and it's
it's like, okay, well, why are you doing this?
You think, you think Jesus is proud of you that you're like no i learned more
and now i really hate my brother-in-law it's like no like stop like if the news is causing you to
hate your brother-in-law like turn it off and go love your brother-in-law you know yeah i have a
chapter in my book which i think you'll you'd like it's called exiles the church and the shadow of
empire that is turned off the news and in it um a real real brief just
little section and i think i even say almost the exact thing you said like if your favorite news
outlet if after spending you know time in your favorite news outlet you're less motivated to
love your neighbor or your enemy more than that news outlet is standing between you and jesus
like we have a clear mandate to love neighbor and enemy alike. And if your passion to do that is dampened by
anything really, including a news outlet, then that's problematic. So what would you say? Because
you've actually done a lot of thinking and research on this. What would you say if somebody
questioned whether various news outlets are soaked with propaganda and are, you know, narrative driven and are really trying to produce
anger and fear and suck you into this kind of tribalistic battle. What if they said, no,
it's not, yeah, sure. They have some bias, but no, I can listen to, you know, hours of Fox news or
MSNBC and, and, and I'm just being informed and Trump really is the devil. And I know this because,
you know, or vice versa, you know,
like, is there data on this that you've seen that would be able to prove the point that these,
the mediums are, are discipling us, not just the content.
Right. I don't know, like specific research comes to mind and that would be a good thing for me to look into. It is sort of taken as
a given. And I would say the part of, so spending less time in the news is one of the things that
will be harped on and we think is a key to having a spiritually healthy relationship with the news.
One of the others is to spend more time with God and to just say, hey, let's ignore research because I don't have any.
I'm sure it's out there, but that's not my plea right here. If you wake up and check your phone
and you're on social media and you're getting dings throughout the day breaking news updates
like I am, and at lunch you're just interested and you sit there and you scroll and you do things,
then while you're doing dishes, you're listening to a long form podcast with some politician or pundit or something like that. And then you turn on the
news at night. How much time with Jesus do you need to spend to just break even? These things,
they are shaping your worldview. That's overtly what they're trying to do. They're trying to inform you on the world and also to get you to think something about that.
And that's not even...
I don't think that's audacious to say.
They say that.
They are trying to inform you and have an overt agenda.
And it's not just like, Trump did this.
They're saying, Trump did this, and that's why he's the best candidate.
And I can't believe...
There's no attempt to hide it. That, that is the service they're providing
is both the information and some analysis of it. And so to say it's like, I think our, our goal is
to help people who want to be more Christ-like in their news, be more Christ-like in the news.
And so if you're saying,
I'm good, then it's kind of like, hey, well, I'm not going to fight the point. I think you're not
good. Or if you don't desire to have a Christ-like worldview, then all right, you do you. But if you
want to have a Christ-like worldview, the way to do that is to spend more time with Christ.
And it's not, I would argue, it's not to spend
more time listening to people say what Jesus would think about some events. It's not like,
oh, we need more pastors commenting on current events. Although I think there is some value in
that, but it's like, just go to Jesus. If you want to think and speak like Christ, spend time with Christ.
That's how we would do anything.
If I want to know what you would say on something, sure, I could ask your wife.
I could also spend more time with you and learn it.
And that's the privilege we have is we have direct access to Jesus.
And so go spend time with him and worry less about
the news in general. And you don't need an opinion on everything. So question why you need,
and if it's to have conversations, ask questions. If someone brings up politics,
they actually don't care what you have to say at all. They want an opportunity to speak.
Just ask them a question. Say, oh, I heard a little bit about that. Like, what did you hear? What do you think?
And then love them. Listen, ask questions. Like actually learn their perspective without
having to correct it. Even if that perspective is, it seems incredibly off. Like you're not
going to correct it. You're not going to win that battle in that moment. Maybe in a long-term
relationship and, you know, but that's, that's going to take a lot of work,
but you could learn. And so try to win that relationship, you know, ask them and try to
build the relationship. And I would also say that is some of the value for why I still do.
And we link the pour over links, Fox and CNN and other stuff. And it's like,
and one of the things that, uh, we, we say is have follow
both sides, but have your goal with both sides be, what does my conservative neighbor think about
this? What are they hearing about it? What, what is my, so instead of going, man, I'm going to go
figure out what those idiots are saying. It's like, take your, your goal. If the goal is to
then have Christ honoring conversations with people, go in and understand what they're hearing and what they're believing so that you can know them better as opposed to trying to just be shaped yourself or saying, no, I'm just on the search for truth.
It's like, well, everyone agrees that the news is imperfect and no one trusts the news.
And there are studies on that.
The trust of the news is at all-time lows. And so it's like, okay, shift your perspective because we don't
live here. We are citizens of heaven. We are eternal. And so we should read world news with
the same level of detachment that I read French news. Like what's going on in France. I'm a little, I'm a little
disconnected there. Like, even if I hear about something, it's like, it doesn't really impact me.
I'm, I'm an American. I live in America. I don't, I don't totally know. It doesn't have the same
emotional appeal learning what's going on in China or France or whatever. We are citizens of heaven
and we're going to live forever. Um, And that's another principle is keeping an eternal perspective. Read the headlines as if
it's 10,000 years from now. Preston, you're in heaven 10,000 years from now. Like, should you
care about this headline at all? Or at the very least, you're going to have the perspective of,
oh yeah, that happened. I mean, you could be talking with
someone who lived in China before it was China and in heaven, you know, who, who loves Jesus
or knew Jesus. And so it's like, okay, or after China's gone and it's like, how would you have
that conversation with someone that lived at a different time in a different country and be like,
conversation with someone that lived at a different time in a different country and be like,
oh, there was this one time in one country that one leader like didn't get all the votes that, uh, like was almost removed from office. And it's like, that's just a very different feel.
Like I feel very less, I'm much less threatened by that. But when a U S president is impeached,
boy, that is, that is all we can talk about,
all we can care about. Everyone must have an opinion on this and be passionate. And it's like,
but zoom out and try to align your desires and your priorities with eternal desires and
eternal priorities. What do you say to the pushback? Because the pushback,
because when I say similar things,
the immediate pushback I get is,
well, must be nice for you up there in Boise, Idaho,
where you're not affected by these things.
But we as Christians can't just be isolated
and pie in the sky,
waiting to get zipped off to heaven.
Like we need to pursue justice in the world.
And there's a lot of people that are affected by political decisions. I mean, this is what I get my kind of
anti give an anti-partisan kind of like, you know, two faces of the empire kind of speech.
People say, well, one side is clearly worse than the other. And a lot of people are going to be
harmed if one side gets in. So by you just sort of wiping your hands clean of any kind of political
involvement,
which is actually, I wouldn't even,
I wouldn't say that's what I'm doing,
but that's the perception, you know,
and that you're not loving your neighbor well
by not caring about all the injustice
that your neighbors are going through
just because you're not experiencing that.
So how do you respond to that?
So our personal eternal security
should free us to be bold today. It shouldn't
make us indifferent. And when you look, there's a great C.S. Lewis quote that it's like, when you
look, you'll see the people that made the biggest impact in this world are the ones that were most
focused on the next because they had nothing to lose, you know? And so it's, it's not saying everything that
happens in the world is meaningless. The physical is meaningless. Who even cares? Why do anything?
And eternity in heaven is all that matters, but eternal things are more important than
temporal things. And so that that's one is like, Hey, we do need to, there is some, I have some
legitimate pushback of like, yeah, but we should, if something's going to impact someone for
eternity, that is more important than someone who's going to suffer for four years under
the wrong administration. But then the second thing is to say, okay, go, that's great. And like, you're right. We're called to care for people and
politics is, and government is an important and powerful tool that impacts a lot of people.
Jesus loves people. We're called to care for people. But make that first off, make it, if
you're saying it's important, then do more than complain and don't just vote and complain on social media.
Engage politically and engage in other ways.
And what's the issue that you're actually worried about?
If it's homelessness, yeah, I would expect – I'll take – is it Bryan Stevenson?
Is he the Equal Justice Initiative guy?
Sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure. He is very
opposed to the death penalty and it would be incongruent. And he does a lot of political
things. He also does legal things. He goes and meets with people. He funds raises. He tries to
help specific people that he thinks are wrongly on death row
and all this stuff. And you look, and so then if, if there's a political candidate that is going to
be opposed to the death penalty or help his progress in that way, I absolutely expect him
to support that candidate. Like he, he has a passion for a cause that is helping people and he is using politics to that end,
but he's also pursuing justice. You know, he's, he's pursuing this cause. And so often what is
brought up is abortion. You know, it's like, Hey, there's, there's a clear, yes, you're saying
politics doesn't really matter, but one party is murdering babies and the other isn't.
And, uh, and, and certainly there, there are flaws. Like I, as a rule, do not defend a political party. Um, I will defend policies. I don't defend, uh, politicians from policy stances.
If they're being personally attacked, I have no issue defending them on that, but I just don't defend a political party.
And it's like, okay, great. I love that God has clearly created in you a passion for the unborn.
That is a good, wonderful thing. There are more ways than voting that you can demonstrate and help save unborn babies. And you're a lot more compelling to me
if you're doing all those things.
But if your whole strategy is to call the other side evil
because they believe differently than you
and then vote every four years,
it's like you're acting like this is a huge thing on your heart.
And it feels a lot more political than issue-driven.
It feels like actually you are kind of just a Republican through and through, which I have no issue with you voting Republican or being a Republican.
But call it what it is and take your time to defend that policy and those decisions, not the political party.
Because then you get in this trap where you say, because Republicans are pro-life, they have a blank check for everything else.
They got one thing right, and I will defend everything else. And it's like, no, defend with ferocity life and, and be willing to
criticize other things that the Republicans get wrong. And so that that's the balance is like,
be, be bold, focus on eternity. That should make us care about very few things.
The things that we should care about go all in and be bold and try to make a huge difference
in them.
But don't confine that to political action is the only way we can make a difference on
these things.
It's like, no, use the discernment.
Does this matter?
Will this matter in 10,000 years?
If yes, be bold, run forth, do that.
But it's not, the political party is not what
matters eternally. They are a means to, to an end and, and, and use them and, and
participate in that way. So that's really helpful actually. And, um, I would even,
what do you go ahead? Yeah. What's your, well, answer what you're going to say, but also what's
your pushback? Um, or what do you think Or what do you think listeners who would push back are pushing back on in their heads yelling at me about?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm usually good at thinking of pushbacks.
Sometimes they're my own.
Sometimes they're just like, I might even agree with you, but I've heard somebody else push back on me.
And so here's what do you think?
How would you handle this? I think people would, because you're not saying don't vote your certain direction, vote for the issues that might be a partisan vote, but don't think that that alone should be the totality of your fight for justice in whatever issue you think is something you want to fight for.
fight for justice in whatever issue you think is something you want to fight for.
The abortion, just to kind of piggyback on what you're saying, assuming a pro-life position,
I think certain laws, it might be good for certain laws to be put in place. You might celebrate the Dobbs v. Jackson overturning of Roe v. Wade, or at least taking it back to the state. And you
may be going to fight to make it illegal you know, illegal on a federal level.
And that might be, you might be able to be involved on that political level.
But I always want to look, like, what's the thing beneath the thing beneath the thing?
You know, according to a LifeWay study in 2015, 70% of women who get an abortion are
Christians.
20% of those Christians go to church at least once a week.
So these are like, not just Christian in the name, but like, so they, there's a decent
percentage of women who get an abortion who believe it's morally wrong.
Well, why?
Okay.
So why are they getting an abortion?
Well, if they have the baby out of wedlock at 19 years old, they're going to face so
much shame from their church environment
that's graceless when it comes to sexual infidelity or whatever, that the shame they're going to face
in their church environment is worse than going to get an abortion and not telling anybody about it.
That's a decent percentage of women who find themselves in that kind of situation.
Or they're 15 years old and they can't afford the baby and there's no no church
structures in place to actually come alongside financially to help this child to have the baby
there's a child having a baby so there's and these are these are widespread in the church so i'm like
okay if you're in that environment all you do is vote against abortion meanwhile there's all this
kind of like warped ecclesiology going on that has no place for forgiveness and
restoration and financial care and all these things so let's do that i just had on amy ford
on my podcast who started a ministry called embrace grace and the whole ministry it's in
over 1100 churches that helps do this helps change the culture of the church that are sort of nudging
women to get an abortion because the
alternative is actually harder than getting the abortion secretly. And then they have tons of
regret and depression. I mean, just, it's, it's, uh, so anyway, so that, that's where I'm,
I'm always asking, like, there's usually whatever tribalistic partisan issue is going back and
forth. There's, there's actually, it's always more complicated right than the talking point always more complicated than talking points and there's
usually stuff that's related that issue right in front of us that we can do um immigration's
another one rather than saying you know build the wall tear down the wall open borders quote
whatever like is biden responsible for all you know border crisis no is trump putting people
in cages meanwhile we should ask we as a church how should we care for the immigrant that is in
our neighborhoods everywhere? You know, like the, the big, like here's, here's another summary of
my rambling is I think the point is to just make less of politics that it's, it's so easy to be an idol. It's so easy to divide people today. It's so easy to
be an idol, so easy to divide people, so easy to ruin relationships. Just make less of it.
Focus on... Because exactly to your point, be compassionate people that care and love and serve others.
When you watch the news, it's so hard to do that.
Like it's if you're, because they, they push this tribalism, they push this divide and,
and to just say, Hey, there's, there's another option.
I'm allowed to care about multiple things or to care a lot about one thing and not know
much about others.
Because that's part of my pushback as well is all these things.
Okay, we've talked about immigration, abortion, and the war in Israel.
Immigration, abortion, and the war in Israel.
You personally are not able to serve your family well, continue your ministry, and make a difference in each one of these three things.
And we're going to talk about in the pour over eight things tomorrow.
So there's this shame that like, no, I need to know.
I need to care.
I need to.
It's this like moral obligation. It's like, but, I need to know. I need to care. I need to, it's this like moral obligation.
It's like, but, but to what end, why? And there is an answer. I'm not, I'm not saying like, why turn off the news? Don't do anything. It's like, no, why? And, and if you, it is so much
better for you to pick one issue and, and learn about it and love and care and make progress and change a tangible, real person
in your life's life, then to try to stay up to date on all these things.
Because again, when you're trying to stay up to date on all these things and juggle what your
stance on all these things is, that's politics. That's the game that you've chosen.
That's the issue that you've chosen is,
I'm picking a political party.
I'm not trying to move forward one thing.
I'm not trying to love real, tangible people in my life
that I know the name of.
I'm not trying to help them.
I'm trying to help everyone.
And the only way to help everyone
is to pick one of these two sides and feel very righteous about the side I'm trying to help everyone. And the only way to help everyone is to pick one of
these two sides and feel very righteous about the side I'm on. And it's like, that is not what Jesus
did. That's not a Christ-like worldview. And I think understanding why you read the news and then
making it just a very small part of your life and then going and trying to love people, make a difference.
And it's good that there's diversity amongst the church and diverse passions. There's a guy,
I wonder, I've only given this example a couple of times. I wonder if it was on your podcast
last time I did it. One of my friends, his son was born with a cleft eyelid. And it was like, they had to pay thousands of
dollars for these special contacts because his eye doesn't remain moist and all this stuff.
And it's a baby and you have to change the contact and do all this stuff. They didn't sleep forever.
But it's like the alternative is he doesn't live long enough to get the surgery and he just loses
an eye. My friend is wildly passionate
and raising money to figure out because these contacts are thousands of dollars and all this
stuff and it was not covered by his good insurance. And so if he was less affluent,
his son would just not have an eye. And he's like, so he has worked to help people with this thing.
I don't care how long I live or how much money I have. I am, I would have never known that that
was an issue to have my heart stirred, but it's like that money he spent didn't go to other causes.
It didn't go to other things. That is a good thing. That's the diversity within the church. He has a need.
He sees a need.
His heart is stirred.
He can make a difference in this thing.
He knows what people are going through in this.
And we should not shame him for not having done something else.
It would almost interrupt his very good pursuit of this particular need if he if he also tried to become an expert in the
abortion debates and you know send tons of money to you know um crisis pregnancy centers and got
involved and like all all the time devoted to that other very important issue would sort of
hinder his work in this other issue because you just can't be spread so thin.
Or even if he did two issues, he can't also take on peace initiatives in the Middle East.
There's always something else.
And so my point with saying that is to have compassion for other people.
And there's this expectation of like, I've picked
an issue or I've heard an issue as big, like, and, and it comes in waves, this, this election
immigration is going to be much bigger than it was in 2008, you know? And it's like, well, no,
you have to vote according to immigration and, and to have like, I think it's, it's more prevalent.
It's impacting more people. Iigration policy will certainly impact my vote.
But having compassion to say, it's my vow, like what I am focused on and working towards
does not need to be the same thing that you're working on for us to both be following God's
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What I'm hearing you saying, I've had saying, this makes so much sense to me. I haven't thought about it in these
terms. So let me just make sure I understand it correctly that by spending too much time
on the news, which covers a range of all these issues that you can never become an expert on
all these issues. You can never become an expert on all these issues
you can never even pursue justice in all these different areas all you're going to be doing is
just kind of stewing in your maybe righteous anger maybe maybe it's like you're everything
you're kind of passionate about you hear this and this and this and this and this this this
maybe you're legitimately concerned about all these things, but overexposing yourself to long-form conversations and pundits and all these things and all those issues will actually hinder your work to maybe dive into one or two of those where you can actually tangibly do something and produce good in the world. So your overexposure to all the news all the time
is actually hindering your actual pursuit of justice. Would you word it like that?
I think we see that. I think we see that. Yes. And so to say the pour-overs methodology and part of what we want to help people measure with this news health
assessment and stuff is to say, all right, how do I...
Great.
So turn off the news, whatever.
I'm supposed to pick an issue.
I'm supposed to have whatever.
How do I just engage with the news?
Because I also don't want to turn it off.
And it's to say, understand why you're consuming the news. Because if you don't know, you're probably consuming it for entertainment or this feeling of, I want to be informed because that feels good. And neither of those are great reasons, often damaging, because that's the other thing. Like pick, figure out why, and then consume as little as possible to meet that objective.
Because we all know people who are over newsed. You're like, man, you would benefit if you just
like turned off the news. You know, we all know those people. We can see that too much news
is bad or it is bad, but no news is also like, again, there's value in being able to converse with neighbors,
knowing what's going on, learning about issues that you're passionate about.
There is some value from the news, but figure out what that is, consume as little as you can
to hit that point, and then spend more time with Jesus
and Christian community and real people. And then there are a number of principles
that are helpful to keep in mind as you follow the news.
I would just add the one point that you already hit on earlier and find something, an area of, I mean, I would use it to phrase justice, but just
what area can you be a good citizen in the world? Like the Jeremiah 29, like what,
maybe it's a local thing. Maybe it's a public thing. Maybe like, is there something in your
life where you're not just maintaining your own personal purity, but you are hopefully working
maybe through your church to, uh, have a political impact on a particular thing
that you're passionate about. Yeah. So it's keep an eternal perspective because a lot of things
don't matter. Love your enemy because the news does not make it easy. Like they will, a news
source will try to make you hate people. And, and remember, you're not allowed to do that.
Be humble and open to correction. And then that last piece is take action.
And it's like, don't take action on everything and don't feel guilty about not taking action
on everything.
And it's okay to take small action.
It's okay to say, man, I like, I'm going to send $10 to an organization that does this
all the time.
Or I'm going to take 30 seconds and pray so that I like,
I'm going to pray for Israel.
Um, and what's happening in Gaza, because I'm not there physically.
I don't feel called to go there physically, but boy, is that a mess?
And, and we just want God to move.
I, I, I do find myself and you might be in this situation too, in a, in a, in a different
position for, for a couple
different reasons one i you know this podcast is a public platform yours is a public platform
and i haven't thought about it you know going into it but it just it is what it is like i do
have a wide variety of guests talking about a wide variety of issues and so I do personally feel the pressure, the responsibility to be
somewhat informed in a broad range of issues because of the diversity of people I have on
and things we're thinking through. Now, sometimes I'll bring someone on just because I know nothing
about something. I'm like, hey, help me think through this. And then I'll get a flood of emails from people that know about that issue and disagree
with the guests I had on. And they're like, what about this? What about that? What about this?
And I'm like, oh, okay. Maybe I could maybe have a different personality, a different perspective.
And I enjoy that. But I do feel, especially since a lot of the issues I wrestle with do have,
especially since a lot of the issues I wrestle with do have,
well, at least some of them have implications for the broader political scene.
Yeah, I do feel like I do need to kind of be more informed
in a lot of that.
But I feel, everything you're describing, though, I do feel.
Like I'll feel incapacitated because I'm like,
there's this and there's that and there's this and there's that.
I'm like, oh, I need to read this book and that book and this book.
I'm having this guest on.
So I need to be, you know, brush up on that.
And what about, you know, and like, I feel that though, you know, and part of it's like,
is this just the nature of what I do?
Or should I even be, not feel the need to be as informed as I try to be?
But I don't know.
It's a hard tension.
I'm sure you feel the exact same thing.
Yeah.
And, and we, it's, it's literally the definition of my job to know
a very little bit about things and then move on, you know? Um, and so again, understanding like
one, I, I love what you said and there's something very different about, oh, I heard about this
topic. I need to go learn more that like, so the news there took five minutes to be aware of something
and then to go dive in and, and learn, like there's a difference between research and I'm
not suggesting that we consume less information or be less informed, be less informed by the news,
you know, like don't, don't be informed on what is going on in Israel and Palestine or the history of Israel, Palestine or whatever by Fox and CNN.
Go learn and talk with people and research.
Read a book.
So there's some of that.
And there's also just some pushback.
You don't need to know everything.
Right.
And because everyone feels you have a better justification than most, but everyone feels that pressure.
No one likes to be the person that doesn't know what's going on.
And so, yeah, if there's a topic that interests you, go study it, research it.
If there's a topic that interests you, go study it, research it.
But there's a huge difference in how we consume information and think about it when we go from hearing about it in passing, being told about it, to, hey, I'm going to go research more things.
And even that research is allowed to be what are conservatives saying, what are liberals saying? Like that is a different mode than just consuming information that is being given to me, you know, of I'm being discerning. I'm going to go try to
understand these things, um, is, is different than letting Fox or CNN or a podcast or whatever, just kind of preach at you. Is it too cynical for me to say, I just don't trust news that comes from an outlet with
a clear partisan bias?
Like within seconds, if I already know, the person giving me the information on a certain
event that's been politicized, if I know exactly who they were voting for, I just,
I don't know.
I just like,
I just got to shrug my shoulders and say,
whatever you're going to tell me now,
I know I have to go do my own research.
And if I have time to do that,
I will.
Otherwise I'm just going to hear,
and I just don't,
I don't,
I don't believe you people because yeah.
Is that too soon?
I mean,
when you listen to news outlets that are clearly partisan,
do you have the same posture?
Do you say the same posture?
Do you say they're right 80% of the time,
but missing out 20 or how do you, I don't know.
Again, my, some of my,
we cover the biggest news of the day controversially,
regardless of its spiritual significant or even really its truth.
Like we cover things that are later disproven or whatever, because that's what's
in the news. We're trying to help you understand what people are talking about. And if people are
talking about the wrong thing, like we can't control that. And so when I, because absolutely,
I read, I consume a fair bit of news and it's kind of across the spectrum, but, but it is like to remove some of the cynicism there's my goal and curiosity is like,
man, I think that's wrong, but okay. That, that is what this category of people think.
And now when I, and like, I have the pressure of writing it in a way, because that category
of people read the pour over and they'll email us if we get it wrong.
So it's like we need to my goal is to pass their test of we've described their views in such a way that they go.
Yeah, that's right.
That's that's what I think.
And and the goal is not just to like avoid an angry email.
It's to help the person on the other side go,
oh, I understand. Like they voted against this bill because X, Y, Z, and these people voted for
the bill because of X, Y, Z. When then the talking heads are saying, and now the world's going to
blow up or whatever. It's like, yeah, you kind of ignore that. But the goal is to understand what's
the motivation and why, why are these people saying these things? Where do you get your, if I can ask?
Well, so it's almost like you're going to the zoo and just summarizing, here's how lions eat.
And here's how you're not advocating that we all eat like lions.
You're just kind of observing how these worrying kind of what people out there are, how they're going about this particular issue.
So that does keep you in this neutral space.
Okay. So I was going to in this neutral space. Okay.
So I was going to ask like,
where did you get your news from?
But in a sense,
you're going about the news in a way that's not,
not trying to inform people on what is actually,
what is actually happening,
but kind of,
well,
trying to summarize,
here are the issues that people are discussing and here's how they're
discussing it.
Like you,
you do.
I mean,
I listen to your podcast every day.
Like it, it's very neutral. It really is like, yeah, you're just giving me
kind of the basic information of what's going on. And here's what this side says, this side says,
and let's pray about it and move on to the next, you know, right. Do you have trustworthy outlets
that you're like, okay, if I actually want to say, I want to know like, what is really going on
at the border? What is really going on Israel palace? What is, you know, do you have certain journalists that you find to be particularly trustworthy or
you're shaking your head? No. Or are you not? I mean, I don't know. There's not there. There
really is not like, I mean, I, I would say again, I believe I trust here is something that I do trust that I know others don't.
I think that it is very rare that news outlets or journalists are intentionally lying.
So I do take them somewhat at their word because you see it on both sides. And there are examples of people being sued and tapes of, hey, they were saying one thing on air and not.
But it's like, again, if the goal is to say, how are people thinking about it?
And even that is telling and informative of like, it was Fox that was sued and they were saying one thing.
It was Fox that was sued and they were saying one thing.
I forget what it was, but there were tapes of them saying large portions of Republicans that believe the election was stolen or not accurate.
And it's like, okay, that is valuable information for me to know.
I can come to a conclusion as to whether or not I think that it was accurate.
But it's not like, okay, was it stolen or not? Now I'm going to go check AP or Reuters or BBC because they'll just tell me what actually happened and then I'm trying to do it. It's like, no, you can't really trust
anyone except you can trust them all to be presenting what they want you to hear.
what they want you to hear. And, and, and, and that's really the goal, you know, because again,
it's that, that information is so much more valuable to me that some people believe the election was stolen. Some people weren't, here's the evidence I can come, but like the information
that I'm going to come across people that believe the election was stolen and other people that believe that it
was fair, that is more valuable information to me as someone with the goal of engaging on the
news in a Christlike way. My goal with reading the news is I'm going to talk with Preston and I want
to show love and compassion and understand Preston and glorify God in the conversation.
Again, a little bit – what am I going to do about election integrity?
I can vote, but I'm not – and there are people, I'm sure, that are like, hey, this is an issue.
I'm now going to go volunteer as an election worker or start a company that counts ballots more accurately.
And those are great things. Those are things it's like, Hey, you had a passion and you're
doing something about it. I'm not going to do that. I'm it's not a core issue for me. So the
value that I get out of that story and this event is understanding how to engage with people.
And I want to do that in a Christlike way. And so that's,
that's how and why I read the news,
which I think is,
is different.
And it,
it lowers the temperature,
you know,
because like you're saying,
part of the campaign I'm on is to say,
if you're reading the news and it's making you the fruit of the spirit is love,
joy,
peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. If you're reading the news and it's making you, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
If you're reading the news and it is producing in you the opposite of those, like not love,
hate, not joy, fear, not gentleness, harshness, not peace, anxiety, you can't do that and say,
but I'm doing this so I know what to be righteously angry about
so that I can love Jesus better. It's like, no, Jesus told us, gave us the test. It's like, hey,
you are close to me. You are overflowing with the Holy Spirit when you feel these things.
And so at the very least, we know that if you are stewing in the news, being discipled
by the news and producing un-Holy Spirit fruit, it is not something that is drawing you closer
to Christ, you know? And so don't consume more of that. Everything you're saying makes sense i i just i feel so many people have been so politicized by
certain media outlets and certain a certain perspective on the same events that is just so
it's like what i if i say this thing is you're saying it's kind of like yeah but if trump gets
elected it's gonna be the end of democracy because you know he thinks that you know there's all this
voter fraud and all that
in january 6 and all this stuff and then the other side will say well yeah here's all the evidence
for the stolen election and january 6 with a walmart super sale gone out of control it wasn't
a threat and what about this footage and that footage and i mean you could like you could take
any super polarized issue and you'll just get two very different perspectives on that issue.
And I'm just seeing this from the outside saying, okay, the side that you are listening to is using that event to gain more power by enlisting your allegiance and fear and hatred of the other.
enlisting your allegiance and fear and hatred of the other.
And at the end of the day, unless you do a lot of deep research, you will never have a really clear-minded, researched, truthful perspective on all these issues, right?
Unless you do, if you do a deep dive research, then sure.
But at the end of the day voter fraud
that you know whatever like you're relying on propaganda from one side of the aisle or the
other to inform you on what really happened or january 6th i mean you could you could google
like do like the different the wild different videos on the one hand you have people breaking
through windows and all this stuff.
And then you look at another outlet and they have police walking people through the Capitol.
And the music in the background of both of them is so different.
It's so different.
And then you have weird stuff.
The people that got arrested and didn't get arrested.
And how come this guy, who was the main instigator, got off or got a slap on the wrist?
Was he planted by the feds and so you can just go down this if you actually say i'm not going to listen to one side or the other i'm actually doing my own research you just end up
kind of like yeah so i guess my question is what as somebody who kind of looks who's kind of non
public who's like i'm not going to drink from either side at the end of the day i don't know
if i can't i even have a strong opinion unless i do all my own research but i don't know every
now and then i'll do a deep dive and I'll just realize these things are a lot more complicated usually than they're made out to be.
And at the end of the day, I don't know.
And guess what?
You don't know either.
But I can't tell people you don't know either because that just makes them so upset.
People are upset even now listening to me say it all the time. I know that. I think my point is to what end and, and is that research and is having a stance,
having a stance that you're willing to like fight.
Yeah.
And for,
is that glorifying to God?
Like my,
my pitch is to people that are saying,
I'm so sick of it.
Like what,
what is my spiritually?
Like,
what is this to me having a, I will ride
and die on this issue stance is on something that's politicized. And I'm, I'm right now
thinking about election fraud or January 6th or whatever. It's like, do you feel the fruit of the spirit right now? Do you feel peace? Do you
feel gentle? Do you feel love? And, and what I'm saying is Jesus, I, I'm not saying I, I have not
taken a stance on like tipped my hand as to what I believe, uh, on those things. And I have stances that I believe are
very true, but to what end? And my goal is not to be right on this thing. My goal is not to know
what happened on January 6th and to describe it perfectly. My goal is to love God and experience his joy and glorify him and love others.
So what I want to propose is that even the question that you ask pre-assumes that we
need an opinion on this.
We need a stance.
And it's like, you don't.
a stance we need. And it's like, you don't, if you just care less and about most things and care more about very few things, that's my, my beef with the news. And we've seen this happen because
it was not, it was like within not my lifetime, but within people's lifetimes that the news was
like, if you were a newsie, that means you watched
the full hour of Walter Cronkite and maybe read a newspaper as well. And, and it was like 200 years
ago or 400 years ago, news moved at the speed of horseback. And then at some point there was the
telegram and it's like, think about what Jesus in Jesus's time was. Huge event could have happened 100 miles away. And I mean, it's days before he hears about it. He did not have the ability to, I'll use someone other than Jesus. The Apostle Paul did not have the ability to know what was happening a hundred miles away. He didn't. And so like, and it's a new thing
for humans to have this. And our grandparents, we did not inherit any good news habits because
our grandparents did not need to have good news habits. They didn't need to have good news
boundaries. They couldn't over consume in the way that we can overconsume. And also, the economic model of news has changed.
It used to be a massively capital-intensive business.
You needed to hire journalists.
You needed to have a huge printing press.
You needed to have minions of fourth and fifth graders to deliver the newspaper.
And so because it was so capital-intensive, there were a few large newspapers that went after the middle. They went after the majority, just the biggest chunk they could get. Because it didn't make economic sense to only target conservatives. You're leaving half the population out. And so all these things have interrelated and happened very quickly to
now I can start a news company and anyone with a phone can be a journalist. And so we don't hear
what happened to our neighbors, but we hear about what happened on the other side of the world.
And so we have this discontent of like, oh my gosh, this is a big, bad thing,
but you can't do anything about it. We weren't meant to do anything about it. Pray, do what you can. We are also, the same advancements that allowed
us to know about it do allow us in some ways to impact it. And we should exercise those things.
And yeah, if there are great organizations that need funding to help do whatever, fund them,
to help do whatever, fund them, give them money, you know? But like, practically speaking, we need to, we are set up to hear about only the biggest things that happen anywhere immediately. That's,
that's the news infrastructure. And spiritually and practically, we're not capable of responding to all that. And so we need to set boundaries with the news.
There's no alternative.
You need to be intentionally less informed on things.
And that's hard.
It's hard to say that you should not know more about the war in Israel and in Gaza because
it is, we should act like our hearts should be breaking. We absolutely should care about these
things. But not everyone needs an opinion on everything. And the only way to do that
is to just consume less. Say, I am choosing peace. I am choosing to be intentionally less
informed. I'm choosing to have healthy spiritual boundaries with the news. I am choosing to be intentionally less informed. I'm choosing to have
healthy spiritual boundaries with the news. I'm going to consume less. I'm going to spend more
time with God. I'm going to layer on discernment because I now can spend every waking moment
consuming news on two times speed and not remotely be informed on everything.
And so I'm going to say, I'm only going to care about things that are eternally significant, or I'm going to run them through
these parameters. I'm going to just try to love people. My goal with the news is to love people,
to glorify God, to have conversations that do it. When I find an issue that really stirs,
I'll go all in, but I'm not going to feel guilty that I can't go all in on all these things. And so my final pitch is these are the principles and the path that are
somewhat applied in the pour over and that we're trying to better define now and say,
it doesn't exist yet, but what I'm creating, what the team is creating is called
the News Health Checkup to go in and say, and it's 20 questions and it asks, how much and where are
you getting your news? How much and how are you spending time with God? What's your reaction to
these different types of statements? And is it reflecting that I am rooted in eternity or not so much? And am I loving my enemy well or am I not?
And am I taking action or am I just complaining?
And do I feel equipped to reconcile relationships?
And am I getting balanced news?
So you can measure these things and say,
oh, I'm actually good in some of these things.
And my anxiety is coming from like
these three areas. And here's some advice on how to practical things that you can do to,
to solve that because there's just so much all the time coming out at us. And we just don't have any
generational wisdom for this problem because it's, it's not a generational problem. It's, it's a,
it's a today problem. So the news health checkup, it would, that's what it's not a generational problem. It's a today problem.
So the News Health Checkup, that's what it's called? The 20-question
test people could do? Yes.
And when will that be available? TBD. It's coming along.
So if you go to newshealth.co.co, the News Health Checkup will either be live or it will be like a wait list.
And I'll start sending some emails about these principles, kind of the news Health Checkup, and I scored like a 62 out of 100.
And it's like I literally created this thing and don't do well. And it's like that was the first indication that, hey, this is good, because I don't feel like I have a good relationship with the news necessarily.
So that's not a good score? 62?
It would be like,
you can get a hundred. This isn't a personality test where it's like, Oh, everyone's fine. And
like, you just have these different strengths. It's like, no, there are right answers. There are,
we believe that there are, you, you should spend not a ton, but sometime in the news,
you should spend a lot of time with God. You should believe these truths about who he is
and that we're supposed to love our enemies and all these things. And it's like, yeah, but if I'm
honest in how I answer these things, I consume too much news. I don't spend enough time with Jesus.
I kind of do feel like some enemies are not deserving of my pure and valuable love, you know? So it's, it's been convicting and
good and, uh, already changed some of my habits. Um, so it's been cool. Thanks Jason so much, uh,
for your work in this area. I love the pour over where can people find you or the pour over you
have, they have a, uh, you have a newsletter people could sign up for, right? Is that, uh,
where's that at? Newsletter and podcast.
And Preston, I really, I credit you with the podcast existing.
I don't know if the podcast would exist if we didn't have all the theology and the raw
listeners doing it and your endorsement.
Yes, the newsletter, if you go to thepourover.org, P-O-U- U R and you can subscribe, or you can just search the pour over
anywhere you listen to podcasts. And, uh, it's the same content either. Yeah. The newsletter is just
the written, uh, it's the script for the podcast, right. Or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well,
thanks Jason. Really appreciate you. Thanks for coming on theology in a row again. Thank you.
This was fun. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.